New build, planning on ditching Apex for Hydros looking for feedback on ATO unit

[Gut Pile]

Apex/Aperture/Brs's current financial issues.

Got any more details on that one? I always figured the end game would be to suck these companies dry and then discard the dead bankrupted husks. Sad - but fascinating to see it play out. Everything about brs and neptune feels enshitified based on my experiences and interactions with them.

 

[littlebigreef]

Got any more details on that one? I always figured the end game would be to suck these companies dry and then discard the dead bankrupted husks. Sad - but fascinating to see it play out. Everything about brs and neptune feels enshitified based on my experiences and interactions with them. i

Nothing in particular beyond same rumors and such. Idk, they bought out Marine Depo and got a monopoly on distribution, then they buy Neptune, drop the competitor (hydros) and then announce discontinuation of Neptune products like Skye.

Even though I have 2 apex units I don’t use their brand dosers, ato, and even though I use their temp probe I run an Inkbird for redundancy. So rather than buying a Jabeo doser, a Tunze ato I’m ready to give hydros as try. With Neptune products I’ve heard and read such mixed to poor reviews and feedback over the years I feel like I can’t trust it, and who knows what support may look like over time.


So rather than pay for a premium an Apex probe/sensor/feature… and then paying again for the corresponding module (disingenuous sales tactic at best) I’m going to start with a Hydros x2 bundle and ato combo. I’ll look to add an X8 down the road as necessary.

I appreciate everyone taking time to share their experiences as well as some of the technical ‘gotchas’ they’ve experienced along the way.

Thanks!

 

[2Plus2]

You have to be careful with the guest network since some routers will limit intercommunications between guest devices and this will cause issues with the wifi communications. I have a ASUS RT-AX58U which has both the 2.4ghz and 5ghz channels name the same. I have had no issues with the wifi devices. I have 4 power strips and a wifi feeder. I do not use it in the AiMesh mode. I did have an issue once but ut was not just the Hydros devices. The Hydros devices were showing a no internet connection on their lights breathing green-yellow. All upload changes would fail. I finally tracked it down to a wifi camera once that was powered down the network started working correctly including the Hydros controllers. The camera was very hot so I am assuming the wifi RF output was on continuously causing issues with the other devices trying to communicate with the router. I have never had an issue with any of the inputs due to a power outage. I have had power backup for the last year on the controllers. I bought my first one right after they came out with them. So it now has been a few years. O MESH type wifi networks it is best to get an access point and wire it to your router instead of using wifi. Then set it up with a different login credentials and on a different unused channel. This will eliminate the MESH causing an issue since the access point is hard wired to the router and not communicating via the router wifi. It provides a separate wifi channel specific to the Hydros or any other device that might have issues with a MESH network. I have used a router setup as an access point to do this since I usually do have previous routers that I can use for this. I did not originally setup my Hydros system on the current router. When replacing the old router I setup the credentials the same as the old one and everything switched over to the new router without any issues.

Fully agree with ya, default on my router is 10, I can bump up if need be.
This network is strictly for the Hydros so it still works out perfectly, since the Ipad is strictly for the Hydros as well.

 

[2Plus2]

Most don't have issues but not all routers are the same and sometimes those differences will cause issues with some devices and not others. Unfortunately there are too many routers and settings on each for anything to be tested under every circumstance so sometimes things just do not work as planned. Usually there is a workaround for most instances. In this case it could be as simple as adding a access point with it's own wifi channel that is connected to the router with a CAT 5 cable so as far as the router is concerned is is a local wired connection and not wifi so it treats it differently than a device connected using wifi. Most routers consider wired connections as safe and do not give them the same security checks as something on wifi. A access point can also be setup with only 2.4ghz in most cases and this helps with some devices also. So it is a matter of case by case most of the time when connection issues show up. Also since wifi is RF signals other RF signals can interfere with them such as a neighbors wifi. Interference can come from other sources other than other wifi devices also. So the RF environment where the wifi is located also plays a big part into whether there are issues or not.

To touch on this more, I see where the issue can arise.

By default our phones and tablets are design to always connect to the better band, it will switch between the 2.4/5 throughout the day as you move around the house, it will favor the 5ghz most of the time.

The controller will always favor the strongest signal and that's technically our choice because we automatically select the most bars when setting up our controllers, in return the controller will never switch around to other channels/ bands.

So if your on a different band/channel while the controller is still stuck on what it was assigned at set up, you can then see where some issues might arise.

I just shared my set up, I kinda like everything in its own nest. Now If i didn't have a stand alone tablet for my controllers I would then not be setting it up how i have it.

 

[n2585722]

To touch on this more, I see where the issue can arise.

By default our phones and tablets are design to always connect to the better band, it will switch between the 2.4/5 throughout the day as you move around the house, it will favor the 5ghz most of the time.

The controller will always favor the strongest signal and that's technically our choice because we automatically select the most bars when setting up our controllers, in return the controller will never switch around to other channels/ bands.

So if your on a different band/channel while the controller is still stuck on what it was assigned at set up, you can then see where some issues might arise.

I just shared my set up, I kinda like everything in its own nest. Now If i didn't have a stand alone tablet for my controllers I would then not be setting it up how i have it.

I can access my controllers with my iPad on the 5ghz channel. The Hydros controllers will never go to 5ghz since they are 2.4ghz only. The connection between the app and controller goes through the cloud. The wifi power strips can connect to 5ghz and if they do the controllers cannot communicate with them since that communication is done locally and does not involve the cloud once the are paired. This can be an issue, but I have never had an issue connecting to the controllers with my iPad. I can be in a different city and still connect with my controllers in the app. The only time you need to be local and on the same wifi is if you are adding a new controller or wifi device to the system.

 

[2Plus2]

I can access my controllers with my iPad on the 5ghz channel. The Hydros controllers will never go to 5ghz since they are 2.4ghz only. The connection between the app and controller goes through the cloud. The wifi power strips can connect to 5ghz and if they do the controllers cannot communicate with them since that communication is done locally and does not involve the cloud once the are paired. This can be an issue, but I have never had an issue connecting to the controllers with my iPad. I can be in a different city and still connect with my controllers in the app. The only time you need to be local and on the same wifi is if you are adding a new controller or wifi device to the system.

Yeap, just trying to figure out why some have stated connection issues and I did see a post where everything looks good, but then when configuring to the user on initial set up it just hangs. Once they get on the same channel on 2.4Ghz it works.

Then Hydros recommends a stand alone 2.4Ghz channel.

Iono, either way it goes the controller seems to be dang good, and I'm impressed so far.

 

[littlebigreef]

Just following up. I bought the X2 bundle and ato package. App is pretty intuitive and straight forward. For ~$300 w/tax I’ve got a controller for 4 outlets, temp reading via the app and an ato unit. I did need to purchase an extension for the ato pump but $10 is really reasonable and shipping was fast.

I like the modularity as I’ll eventually add the X8 power bar. Connectivity was not an issue.

The ato sensor is similar to the new Tunze ato ‘3’ (replacing the 3155). I’ve read poor reviews on that unit, have high hopes for hydros and know now I can add an additional sensor for redundancy. The pump appears to be pretty generic. The tunze are workhorses, my first one lasted almost 7 years, so, we’ll see.

With the controller in place and leak testing done I closed the stand up, salted the water and now I’m just dialing in the salinity.

Tank is a 155 AGA rr bow front.
Sump is a trigger systems 39 emerald with ato water chamber.
Skimmer is a reef octopus.
Lighting (not mounted) is a hybrid 5’ ati 4 bulb t5 unit and a 6’ xho reefbrite blue (to start).

I’m replacing a 70 gal show that held misc stuff in my fish room.

 

[SpyC]

Just following up. I bought the X2 bundle and ato package. App is pretty intuitive and straight forward. For ~$300 w/tax I’ve got a controller for 4 outlets, temp reading via the app and an ato unit. I did need to purchase an extension for the ato pump but $10 is really reasonable and shipping was fast.

I like the modularity as I’ll eventually add the X8 power bar. Connectivity was not an issue.

The ato sensor is similar to the new Tunze ato ‘3’ (replacing the 3155). I’ve read poor reviews on that unit, have high hopes for hydros and know now I can add an additional sensor for redundancy. The pump appears to be pretty generic. The tunze are workhorses, my first one lasted almost 7 years, so, we’ll see.

With the controller in place and leak testing done I closed the stand up, salted the water and now I’m just dialing in the salinity.

Tank is a 155 AGA rr bow front.
Sump is a trigger systems 39 emerald with ato water chamber.
Skimmer is a reef octopus.
Lighting (not mounted) is a hybrid 5’ ati 4 bulb t5 unit and a 6’ xho reefbrite blue (to start).

I’m replacing a 70 gal show that held misc stuff in my fish room.

Are you still liling the hyrdos? Any issues?

 

[braaap]

Are you still liling the hyrdos? Any issues?

For the most part I like mine. Their claim that you don't have to be a programmer is a joke. You just have to make 25 different inputs or outputs to get the fine control like you did on Apex. And the software is clunky and messy. The hydros employees are also incredibly rude and really full of themselves. So don't plan on getting support.

But the build quality and reliability is WAY better.

Overall I think they worried too much about crushing Neptune Systems and not enough about their own system. They are also spread way too thin. All these new addon's like low quality lights or $300 dosing/fluid pumps. When they can't even get the software up to snuff.

 

[SpyC]

For the most part I like mine. Their claim that you don't have to be a programmer is a joke. You just have to make 25 different inputs or outputs to get the fine control like you did on Apex. And the software is clunky and messy. The hydros employees are also incredibly rude and really full of themselves. So don't plan on getting support.

But the build quality and reliability is WAY better.

Overall I think they worried too much about crushing Neptune Systems and not enough about their own system. They are also spread way too thin. All these new addon's like low quality lights or $300 dosing/fluid pumps. When they can't even get the software up to snuff.

I saw someone posted that when the wifi goes out the sense ports go ham and outlets set to the failover setting. Have you experienced this?

 

[braaap]

I saw someone posted that when the wifi goes out the sense ports go ham and outlets set to the failover setting. Have you experienced this?

Nope. And I have had my wifi go out plenty of times.

 

[n2585722]

For the most part I like mine. Their claim that you don't have to be a programmer is a joke. You just have to make 25 different inputs or outputs to get the fine control like you did on Apex. And the software is clunky and messy. The hydros employees are also incredibly rude and really full of themselves. So don't plan on getting support.

But the build quality and reliability is WAY better.

Overall I think they worried too much about crushing Neptune Systems and not enough about their own system. They are also spread way too thin. All these new addon's like low quality lights or $300 dosing/fluid pumps. When they can't even get the software up to snuff.

I think the Hydros can do some complex stuff easily. Here is my ATO output and the ATO OK output for example. The ATO output is a generic output type. In the ATO output there are 5 inputs and all have to be active for the ATO output to turn on. The inputs are Sump ATO Level, Leak 42g, Leak RODI, DI Low and 42g Sump High. The Sump ATO Level is the sensor that triggers dry if the water level drops below the level you want it at in the sump so that one is set to active when dry. The next 2 are leak detectors. One is in the bottom of the stand at the tank. The other is in the garage where my DI reservoir, ATO pump, RODI unit and other things such as my mixing station and AWC pumps are at. These are set to active when dry also since I do not want my ATO to run if there is a leak. The next input is DI low and it is set to active when wet since if it were dry the DI reservoir would be low on DI water so I would not want the ATO to run if it were dry. The last one is 42g Sump High and that one indicates that the water level is too high in the sump so that one is set to active when dry since I do not want the ATO to run if the sump water level were to high. The combiner mode is set to AND since I want all input to be active before the output can come on. I do not use a schedule for the ATO so that setting is turned off for this output. The output device is just the port that is being turned on or off by this output. The power safe range and notification level I do not have setup for this output but you can do that if the output in use has power monitoring. The next setting is if input / dependency is unavailable I have set to off. So if something were to happen to a input it would force the output to off. I do have enable advanced settings turn on since I use those on this output. The first one is minimum off time and it is set to 5 minutes. So once the output turns off for any reason it cannot turn back on again until it has been off for at least the minimum off time set here. The exception is if the output is forced off by the depends on setting the the minimum off time does not start until the depends on is released. The next one is maximum off time. This one is set for three hours. If the ATO stays off for three hours then an alert will be sent to that fact and that setup is still to come. It will not turn on the output though. It is just for alert purposes. The next setting is minimum on time. This is set to 35 seconds. So it will run at least that long once turned on but with the pump I use that is not very much since it has the flow rate set to 55ml a minute. Next is maximum on time and this is set to 3 minutes. I also have run past max on time turned off so if the output stays on for the time set it will then turn off and send an alert which is the next setting and that is set to yellow. So the alert will be sent however the yellow alert is setup in this case. The next setting is active in mode. Here you set the mode that this output can be active in. I don't have any unchecked but I do not use manual water change but if you did you could set it to not be active but I also stop the ATO if the return pump is off for any reason which will to the same thing anyway since it would be off during a manual water change. The depends on is set to ATO OK which is on if it is ok for the ATO to run based on it's inputs which in this case are other outputs. The dependency mode is set to off if off. So if ATO OK is off the ATO output is forced to off regardless of any of the inputs. There are several reasons I want to so this the main one is if the return pump is off. Now to the ATO OK output. The ATO OK output is a combiner output type which is similar to generic but it's inputs are other outputs. It had 2 inputs. Both are AWC pumps. One is the drain pump and one is the fill pump. I use smart dosing pumps for my AWC so I use a dosing schedule to control them, but if either are on I want the ATO to stay off. Since this uses the ATO depends on to force it off there is a 5 minute delay before the ATO output can come on once both pumps are off. For the inputs on the combiner the active state is normally when the output used as in input is on but if you set invert input to on it is the opposite which is what I used here. The combiner mode is AND so in this case both inputs have to be off for this output to be on since I have then set to invert input. There is no output port used on this output since it is only used for logic for the depends on. On this output enable advanced settings is set to off. It is also set to active in all modes. The depends on in this output is set to the return pump and the dependency mode is set to off if off. That is about it for those two outputs. braaap I know you don't need the long description but id someone that is not familiar with the Hydros reads this then hopefully with this decryption and the screenshot they can see how it is done.

 

[n2585722]

I saw someone posted that when the wifi goes out the sense ports go ham and outlets set to the failover setting. Have you experienced this?

That can happen if the controller reboots due to the wifi issue but it would only last as long as it takes for the controller to reboot. Usually by the time you know it happened it has rebooted and all is well again. There is a difference loosing wifi and loosing internet. A lot of people say it is wifi and it is internet instead.

 

[SpyC]

That can happen if the controller reboots due to the wifi issue but it would only last as long as it takes for the controller to reboot. Usually by the time you know it happened it has rebooted and all is well again. There is a difference loosing wifi and loosing internet. A lot of people say it is wifi and it is internet instead.

Ok, so if internet goes out, but wifi is still functioning, the unit may or may not function properly until internet is restored? If that is the case, once internet is restored do you need to manually reset the hydros?

 

[n2585722]

Ok, so if internet goes out, but wifi is still functioning, the unit may or may not function properly until internet is restored? If that is the case, once internet is restored do you need to manually reset the hydros?

The only thing that would be an issue without internet is accessing the controller or collective since you need internet for the app to work. Usually I can set wifi off on my phone and bring up the app and then switch to bluetooth mode if I need to for some reason. In that mode you can see all the inputs and outputs but you cannot change any of the settings. You can start a mode or override outputs to either off, auto or on if you want. If for some reason you were to loose wifi then any wifi device like the wifi feeder or wifi power strips would not communicate with the controllers. If you have a collective the controllers would still communicate with each other on the command bus so all of controllers would still work with each other. They would not be happy without either wifi or internet but they would continue the way they were setup. They will try and reboot to re establish wifi if it is out long enough. It would be rare for me to have wifi issues but I have a lot of internet outages. I lost internet for 5 days straight during an ice storm and the Hydros kept on going but they did have the lights breathing green for no internet.

 

[braaap]

I think the Hydros can do some complex stuff easily. Here is my ATO output and the ATO OK output for example. The ATO output is a generic output type. In the ATO output there are 5 inputs and all have to be active for the ATO output to turn on. The inputs are Sump ATO Level, Leak 42g, Leak RODI, DI Low and 42g Sump High. The Sump ATO Level is the sensor that triggers dry if the water level drops below the level you want it at in the sump so that one is set to active when dry. The next 2 are leak detectors. One is in the bottom of the stand at the tank. The other is in the garage where my DI reservoir, ATO pump, RODI unit and other things such as my mixing station and AWC pumps are at. These are set to active when dry also since I do not want my ATO to run if there is a leak. The next input is DI low and it is set to active when wet since if it were dry the DI reservoir would be low on DI water so I would not want the ATO to run if it were dry. The last one is 42g Sump High and that one indicates that the water level is too high in the sump so that one is set to active when dry since I do not want the ATO to run if the sump water level were to high. The combiner mode is set to AND since I want all input to be active before the output can come on. I do not use a schedule for the ATO so that setting is turned off for this output. The output device is just the port that is being turned on or off by this output. The power safe range and notification level I do not have setup for this output but you can do that if the output in use has power monitoring. The next setting is if input / dependency is unavailable I have set to off. So if something were to happen to a input it would force the output to off. I do have enable advanced settings turn on since I use those on this output. The first one is minimum off time and it is set to 5 minutes. So once the output turns off for any reason it cannot turn back on again until it has been off for at least the minimum off time set here. The exception is if the output is forced off by the depends on setting the the minimum off time does not start until the depends on is released. The next one is maximum off time. This one is set for three hours. If the ATO stays off for three hours then an alert will be sent to that fact and that setup is still to come. It will not turn on the output though. It is just for alert purposes. The next setting is minimum on time. This is set to 35 seconds. So it will run at least that long once turned on but with the pump I use that is not very much since it has the flow rate set to 55ml a minute. Next is maximum on time and this is set to 3 minutes. I also have run past max on time turned off so if the output stays on for the time set it will then turn off and send an alert which is the next setting and that is set to yellow. So the alert will be sent however the yellow alert is setup in this case. The next setting is active in mode. Here you set the mode that this output can be active in. I don't have any unchecked but I do not use manual water change but if you did you could set it to not be active but I also stop the ATO if the return pump is off for any reason which will to the same thing anyway since it would be off during a manual water change. The depends on is set to ATO OK which is on if it is ok for the ATO to run based on it's inputs which in this case are other outputs. The dependency mode is set to off if off. So if ATO OK is off the ATO output is forced to off regardless of any of the inputs. There are several reasons I want to so this the main one is if the return pump is off. Now to the ATO OK output. The ATO OK output is a combiner output type which is similar to generic but it's inputs are other outputs. It had 2 inputs. Both are AWC pumps. One is the drain pump and one is the fill pump. I use smart dosing pumps for my AWC so I use a dosing schedule to control them, but if either are on I want the ATO to stay off. Since this uses the ATO depends on to force it off there is a 5 minute delay before the ATO output can come on once both pumps are off. For the inputs on the combiner the active state is normally when the output used as in input is on but if you set invert input to on it is the opposite which is what I used here. The combiner mode is AND so in this case both inputs have to be off for this output to be on since I have then set to invert input. There is no output port used on this output since it is only used for logic for the depends on. On this output enable advanced settings is set to off. It is also set to active in all modes. The depends on in this output is set to the return pump and the dependency mode is set to off if off. That is about it for those two outputs. braaap I know you don't need the long description but id someone that is not familiar with the Hydros reads this then hopefully with this decryption and the screenshot they can see how it is done.

But to do all that you had to make inputs and outputs and all of the dependencies. On Apex I can type 4 lines of code referencing probes or switches and be done. I don't have to go to a bunch of different pages or outputs. It is SUPER simple and takes 2 minutes.

The "you don't have to be a coder" is absolute nonsense. And I'm not the only one saying it. You just have to understand 10 different terms that make no sense and be a coder but without writing code. You have to understand how the hydros codes using drop downs and workarounds to do simple things.

 

[littlebigreef]

Are you still liling the hyrdos? Any issues?

I’ve been very happy with it. I love the fact that equipment can just plug directly into the controller, cabinet is so much cleaner (I also have 2 apex units with accoutrements for reference). I don’t run a collective since I just have 2 simple power bricks. I do get email notifications that these drop off sometimes but it doesn’t affect functionally. They also reconnect via pressing buttons in the app vs apex where it may be days (and then I have to unplug/replug in the brain to reset).

Like all things familiarity breeds comfort. I find the app interface (while somewhat clunky) is easier to understand than apex. There’s also something to be said for the ‘no fan’ cooling of the unit.

On the whole I love the value, simplistic/clean modularity and straightforwardness of the app (I am a web developer, haven’t had to write code but for my application I’ve been able to find videos/documentation for what I need to learn).

*they could stand to update their documentation but that’s life lol.

 

[littlebigreef]

Also, gratuitous excuse to post a fts.