Quarantine Tank Methodology?

[Fish Fan]

Hi all!

I'm sure this has been asked and answered before, so I apologize in advance, but would appreciate some help. I am getting back into reefing with two small tanks that are now ready for some livestock, and I'd like to setup a QT system for pretty much everything I can; fish, corals, even inverts, where practical. I did see the sticky here on quarantine tanks, but the information is going back as far as 2010. And from the searching and researching I've done so far, it seems like this is really an area of widely differing opinions and methodologies.

Could someone please give me some suggestions on how to setup and manage QT tanks, and how you're treating your fish and dipping your corals?

I am leaning towards following the advice in this video series from BRS because it's fairly recent info, and because they do a good job of spelling out the steps involved, at least for fish. Does anyone think this is a bad way to go? Would you do anything differently?



And what about inverts and corals?

I believe most people setup two tanks, one with fish that is typically medicated, and one for corals for observation after they've been dipped. Can I house and observe inverts like shrimp and crabs in the tank with the corals, or do they need a separate third tank? My plan was to house the inverts away from fish for a period of time - I believe 60 days is about right - to starve out most, but I think not all, potential fish parasites. I'm not sure there's much else you can do with inverts, right? And am I correct to think that 2 months without fish is enough to starve out most fish parasites?

And how do you maintain these tanks? For example, in the videos above they tell you not to even worry about a bio filter because you'll be doing so many water changes. However, is there anything wrong with having an established bio filter on the QT tank? Would any of the copper or other medications be bad for the nitrifying bacteria? My thought is, why not have an active bio filter? I mean, even a little ammonia would be stressful on an already stressed fish, so why not eliminate that extra stressor?

I have on hand several 10 gallon tanks and a 20 gallon long (if needed), and I have several AquaClear 70's and a 110 HOB I thought I'd use to circulate the tanks. Unless otherwise advised, I thought I'd run some bio media in these AC's, which could also hold things like carbon to remove any medications later.

I have a bottle of the Copper medication used in the BRS video series, I have at least two coral dips, and I would like to learn more about using hydrogen peroxide as a coral dip. I have some of those ammonia badges and SeaChem Prime, if needed. I even picked up a used Hanna Copper checker recently.

I feel like I know just enough to be dangerous lol!

Any suggestions on how to QT livestock would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[threebuoys]

Our recommended QT protocol for fish is detailed in the following link. We regularly review the protocol and update when improvements are found. Some links on the forums share earlier protocols and may not be as current as this one.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Fish Fan]

Our recommended QT protocol for fish is detailed in the following link. We regularly review the protocol and update when improvements are found. Some links on the forums share earlier protocols and may not be as current as this one.

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

How did I miss this?!?! Thank you so much, I am reading through it now.

 

[Fish Fan]

OK, I have read through almost half of the Quarantine Protocol post linked above (and I will finish it), I've reread the first post by Jay Hemdal a few times over, and I think I have a better handle on things now. I do plan on using the methodology outlined in that post.

I would like to ask, the immediate purchase I'm looking to make is a Yasha goby and a Randall's pistol shrimp, and I'm actually hoping to pick them up tomorrow, if possible. Is there any special considerations for quarantining the Yasha? Through the post above, I found the Fish and Treatment Guidelines chart, which indicates that gobies are a 1 for copper sensitivity (meaning the least sensitive), but the Yasha goby just seems so small and delicate. Do I have anything to be concerned with if I follow the protocol above with a Yasha goby? Does this fish require a small dish of sand during the QT process?

And what should I do with the shrimp? My only thought was to keep him in a tank separate from the goby for now, and wait for what I thought was about 60 days to starve out the majority of fish parasites, but now I think that should get pushed out to 76 or more days, I think I read. Is there any other quarantine, treatment, dip or anything else you do for inverts like shrimp, crabs, snails, etc.?

And last, what do you guys do with corals? I'm guessing a dip when they first come in, then into their own observation tank for the 76 or so days? Can I keep the corals in one tank along with the pistol shrimp and any other inverts I get, or would it be best to have three tanks - fish, corals, and other inverts?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for your help!

 

[threebuoys]

OK, I have read through almost half of the Quarantine Protocol post linked above (and I will finish it), I've reread the first post by Jay Hemdal a few times over, and I think I have a better handle on things now. I do plan on using the methodology outlined in that post.

I would like to ask, the immediate purchase I'm looking to make is a Yasha goby and a Randall's pistol shrimp, and I'm actually hoping to pick them up tomorrow, if possible. Is there any special considerations for quarantining the Yasha? Through the post above, I found the Fish and Treatment Guidelines chart, which indicates that gobies are a 1 for copper sensitivity (meaning the least sensitive), but the Yasha goby just seems so small and delicate. Do I have anything to be concerned with if I follow the protocol above with a Yasha goby? Does this fish require a small dish of sand during the QT process?

And what should I do with the shrimp? My only thought was to keep him in a tank separate from the goby for now, and wait for what I thought was about 60 days to starve out the majority of fish parasites, but now I think that should get pushed out to 76 or more days, I think I read. Is there any other quarantine, treatment, dip or anything else you do for inverts like shrimp, crabs, snails, etc.?

And last, what do you guys do with corals? I'm guessing a dip when they first come in, then into their own observation tank for the 76 or so days? Can I keep the corals in one tank along with the pistol shrimp and any other inverts I get, or would it be best to have three tanks - fish, corals, and other inverts?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thank you for your help!

The goby should do fine in QT, but do add a container of sand and some hiding spots. I use a small plastic Tupperware type container with an inch or so of non-calcareous (calcium based) sand and pvc.

Shrimp observation is about all you can do; I'm not sure if they can be a carrier for ich, velvet or flukes or not.

You may find more info about coral QT in the R2R forums dedicated to corals. While various dips are used, I've not found a standardized, widely accepted QT method.

 

[Fish Fan]

The goby should do fine in QT, but do add a container of sand and some hiding spots. I use a small plastic Tupperware type container with an inch or so of non-calcareous (calcium based) sand and pvc.

Shrimp observation is about all you can do; I'm not sure if they can be a carrier for ich, velvet or flukes or not.

You may find more info about coral QT in the R2R forums dedicated to corals. While various dips are used, I've not found a standardized, widely accepted QT method.

Thank you again for your help, I really appreciate it!

Yes, I will do a dish of sand and some hiding spots (PVC elbows) for the goby. I actually read the opposite elsewhere, but I really think the Yasha would do better with some sand.

I thought I followed up on this last night, but I guess I didn't hit "post". I found a post in another thread that speaks to quarantining inverts. That post suggests that hard shelled critters like crabs and shrimp can carry encysted ich and velvet, and for this reason should be QT'ed. However, you only need to hold them until they molt, at which time you "rinse" them and place them in your tank. Snails, for example, should be held in an observation tank for the full 76 days.

I'm a little fuzzy on what "rinse" means, but I believe this means you take the critter from its QT tank and place it quickly in another container of saltwater, and then into your tank. I believe this is to minimize any of the QT tank water from getting into the display tank.

The post goes on to say that animals like anemones and urchins cannot harbor fish parasites, and do not need an observation period, just a rinse.

Here's the thread that I found most helpful, assuming it's accurate:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/quarantine-invertebrates.745500/

And this is the specific post I'm referring to:

Yes. Quarantine your inverts. I will explain why.

Part of the life cycle of both ich and velvet involves the organism latching onto a hard surface, glass, plastic, snail shell, crab shell, etc, to grow and release the free swimming stage which goes on to infect fish. There's no obvious signs of this, so the only way to be sure is to put them in a system without fish for a minimum of 45 days (Velvet), or 76 days (ich) as that is how long it takes for each parasite to starve to death, being unable to feed on fish. Unfortunately the copper based medicines that would speed up the process would also kill the inverts, hence why it takes so long.

That being said, 'soft' inverts such as urchins and anenomes, ich/velvet cannot latch onto, so these only need a good rinsing or two after acclimation before introducing to the display tank.

That is why we recommend quarantining inverts. I learned this lesson the hard way, when velvet got in my tank aboard a snail I did not quarantine and lost most of my livestock.

You actually only need two tanks. Use one to quarantine the fish, treat with copper or however you want. Because it's only a 10 gallon, it's easy and fast to remove the copper via Cuprisorb and water changes to then dose prazi.

Keep the other 10 gallon as your invert quarantine. Heck, set it up as a nano tank with rock and whatnot since you won't be using any meds on this one. Run a batch of inverts through it, once they go into your display, add the next batch of inverts. Batches are best, but if you can keep track of which inverts were introduced when, at each 76 day mark they can be put in the display. What I mean by that is if you put snails in there Day One then Day 30 you put in hermit crabs, you can take the snails out Day 76, and the hermits Day 106.

I hope this explains and answers your questions.

I get that this isn't the dedicated coral forum, so I will post any further questions there. But I believe it's basically a dip then observe kind of thing. I'll research the corals more, but I think today I'd like to go get the goby and shrimp I'm after, and I think I have what I need to get them going.

Thank you again for your help!

 

[nereefpat]

I would like to ask, the immediate purchase I'm looking to make is a Yasha goby and a Randall's pistol shrimp, and I'm actually hoping to pick them up tomorrow, if possible. Is there any special considerations for quarantining the Yasha? Through the post above, I found the Fish and Treatment Guidelines chart, which indicates that gobies are a 1 for copper sensitivity (meaning the least sensitive), but the Yasha goby just seems so small and delicate. Do I have anything to be concerned with if I follow the protocol above with a Yasha goby? Does this fish require a small dish of sand during the QT process?

A small container of playsand (not anything calcium based), like threebuoys sad, isn't a bad idea. Besides some extreme examples (sharks/rays maybe?), I don't think Copper Power/Safe will cause problems to any of the fishes we keep. Those sensitive to copper would apply more to the ionic copper treatments.

And what should I do with the shrimp? My only thought was to keep him in a tank separate from the goby for now, and wait for what I thought was about 60 days to starve out the majority of fish parasites, but now I think that should get pushed out to 76 or more days, I think I read. Is there any other quarantine, treatment, dip or anything else you do for inverts like shrimp, crabs, snails, etc.?

For motile inverts, the safest thing to do as far as transferring fish diseases, is to just keep them in their own cycled fishless tank for a while. 76 days is unnecessary. If temps are above 80 degrees, 45 days is enough for a fallow period for ich. Velvet is shorter yet.

And last, what do you guys do with corals? I'm guessing a dip when they first come in, then into their own observation tank for the 76 or so days? Can I keep the corals in one tank along with the pistol shrimp and any other inverts I get, or would it be best to have three tanks - fish, corals, and other inverts?

I think that it depends on your goals, and of course your risk tolerance. If the goal is to keep out fish diseases, then keeping corals in a fishless system for a while would be foolproof for that. If the coral can be snapped off the plug and there isn't a place for ich to attach (like an Acro stick), there really isn't much risk for fish disease there. Some people that are really into Acropora and keep rare/expensive and wild collected new SPS will watch really carefully for Monti eating nudibranchs and red bugs for sticks. This requires dips and checks with a magnifying glass.

I found a post in another thread that speaks to quarantining inverts. That post suggests that hard shelled critters like crabs and shrimp can carry encysted ich and velvet, and for this reason should be QT'ed. However, you only need to hold them until they molt, at which time you "rinse" them and place them in your tank. Snails, for example, should be held in an observation tank for the full 76 days.

I'm a little fuzzy on what "rinse" means, but I believe this means you take the critter from its QT tank and place it quickly in another container of saltwater, and then into your tank. I believe this is to minimize any of the QT tank water from getting into the display tank.

The "molting" theory sounds reasonable to me. You are right about waiting for them to lose the molt, then transferring to "fresh" saltwater to minimize any water that might carry disease. For snails, if you get them from a tank that has fish, I would let them be in a fishless tank for a while. There are places that sell inverts that don't keep fish. Reefcleaners is one.

The post goes on to say that animals like anemones and urchins cannot harbor fish parasites, and do not need an observation period, just a rinse.

Anemones don't have a place for ich to encyst, so I sort of agree with that. They are full of tank water, however. Urchins, I'm not sure.

 

[Fish Fan]

Hello and thank you very much for your help!

A small container of playsand (not anything calcium based), like threebuoys sad, isn't a bad idea. Besides some extreme examples (sharks/rays maybe?), I don't think Copper Power/Safe will cause problems to any of the fishes we keep. Those sensitive to copper would apply more to the ionic copper treatments.

Thank you for the reassurance! I have on hand some swimming pool filter sand that I use in my freshwater tanks, I believe it's a silica sand and it's very clean, much cleaner than play sand, for example. I also have a Caribsea freshwater sand that looks like very small polished rocks of some kind. I'm not sure which would be better, or if there's a recommended option.

For motile inverts, the safest thing to do as far as transferring fish diseases, is to just keep them in their own cycled fishless tank for a while. 76 days is unnecessary. If temps are above 80 degrees, 45 days is enough for a fallow period for ich. Velvet is shorter yet.

Interesting! I thought basically everything had to be kept out to the 76 days. Good to know, thank you!

I think that it depends on your goals, and of course your risk tolerance. If the goal is to keep out fish diseases, then keeping corals in a fishless system for a while would be foolproof for that. If the coral can be snapped off the plug and there isn't a place for ich to attach (like an Acro stick), there really isn't much risk for fish disease there. Some people that are really into Acropora and keep rare/expensive and wild collected new SPS will watch really carefully for Monti eating nudibranchs and red bugs for sticks. This requires dips and checks with a magnifying glass.

I am mostly concerned with fish parasites, but certainly the health of the corals too. I am going to do more research over on the coral forum before purchasing anything. I do hope to purchase the goby and pistol shrimp if not today then over the weekend, and at least I think I know enough to get them going.

The "molting" theory sounds reasonable to me. You are right about waiting for them to lose the molt, then transferring to "fresh" saltwater to minimize any water that might carry disease. For snails, if you get them from a tank that has fish, I would let them be in a fishless tank for a while. There are places that sell inverts that don't keep fish. Reefcleaners is one.

The molting thing does make sense, after all the ich or velvet is on the exoskeleton of the crab or whatever. I'm not totally sure what's best.

That's a hot tip about ReefCleaners; thank you! I was just about to place an order with them, but I didn't know they had fishless systems, and I was planning on keeping all may snails and hermits and what not for the 76 days.

Anemones don't have a place for ich to encyst, so I sort of agree with that. They are full of tank water, however. Urchins, I'm not sure.

I have no plans for an anemone in the near future, but I wasn't even thinking that an anemone is more or less a bag of water lol!

There's so much to think about here, and definitely some differing opinions about what's best practice. I also know that almost no method is going to be 100% effective, I'd just like to minimize any pest organisms getting into my systems.

Thank you again for your reply and help!

 

[jda]

If you want to be vigilant, you need to have the inverts in systems without fish for the entire fallow period. Snails, shrimp, etc. The tiniest thing can get through otherwise. Not many people do this, but it is the only way to be 100% disease free.

Many snail and inverts in the hobby are not going to be happy at 80 degrees... trochus, margaritas, turbos, etc. Their lives get really short. I would not raise temperature to cut down fallow time without understanding your exact species.

Silica based sands can be hard on some marine fish and inverts - their surfaces can sometimes be like tiny little razor blades. You will get different opinions on whether to use this, no not.

 

[Fish Fan]

If you want to be vigilant, you need to have the inverts in systems without fish for the entire fallow period. Snails, shrimp, etc. The tiniest thing can get through otherwise. Not many people do this, but it is the only way to be 100% disease free.

Many snail and inverts in the hobby are not going to be happy at 80 degrees... trochus, margaritas, turbos, etc. Their lives get really short. I would not raise temperature to cut down fallow time without understanding your exact species.

Silica based sands can be hard on some marine fish and inverts - their surfaces can sometimes be like tiny little razor blades. You will get different opinions on whether to use this, no not.

Thank you for your reply and help!

I am going to try to be vigilant. I have no problem being patient and waiting the full 76 days, and I have a rack with several 10 gallon tanks I plan on using for my QT system.

That's good to know about the temperature and the snails. As nereefpat said earlier, ReefCleaners has inverts house without fish. Would these need QT at all?

I had the same concern about silica sand. I *think* this is the CaribSea sand I have. It's definitely not sharp, and it's obviously not aragonite or crushed coral or anything like that. I think this may be my best bet.

Thank you again for your help!

 

[Fish Fan]

And just kind of thinking out loud here, but in the thread posted by Jay Hemdal I learned about the Tank Transfer Method. Has anyone thought to do the TTM but use copper treated water? It seems like putting two good ideas together, but maybe it's too much stress on the fish?

 

[jda]

You would have to have guarantees from ReefCleaners that they never added any new stuff in that 76 days. I do not think that they can make this, but I have never asked them. Stuff comes and goes all of the time. Fishless systems help, but are no guarantee. If you are serious, I would do all of this yourself.

I asked about inverts shipped dry the other day - I get mine from ReefTopia and they ship snails and some things dry. The whole point is that all of this can mean fewer chances, but still not zero.

Inverts Shipped Dry

I know that anything is a risk, but do snails and hermits that are shipped dry have much risk of fish diseases making it through shipping? I don't really need any "why risk it" type of discussion, but does anybody know how tomonts, theronts, etc. would handle such an experience being out of water?

www.reef2reef.com

 

[nereefpat]

Many snail and inverts in the hobby are not going to be happy at 80 degrees... trochus, margaritas, turbos, etc. Their lives get really short. I would not raise temperature to cut down fallow time without understanding your exact species.

That's a good point.

And just kind of thinking out loud here, but in the thread posted by Jay Hemdal I learned about the Tank Transfer Method. Has anyone thought to do the TTM but use copper treated water? It seems like putting two good ideas together, but maybe it's too much stress on the fish?

TTM works well for ich. It has a couple downsides. It does not treat any other diseases, and you have to have somewhere for the fish to go after the 14 days of transfers are over. It's also a bit of work.

If you plan on using copper, there really isn't a reason to do TTM.

TTM can work well as a prophylactic QT, in that it:
Takes care of ich.
If you combine Prazi with it, it takes care of flukes.
It sort-of screens for velvet, because after 14 days, you would know if the fish has velvet or not.
You don't have to have a cycled QT running to do TTM.

 

[jda]

The last thing that I will add is that coral QT is no joke. It often needs to be a full-blown reef tank ideally with the same lights as your display. This is for the fish and coral parasites. Fishless coral tanks are not easy since the fish waste provides the best nutrients to the corals. Adding in no3 and po4 is not the same. The best coral QTs that I have seen have many shrimp and crabs that get fed a lot to do this same job. Ammonium dosing and juice from frozen food works pretty well too. If you skip on a coral QT you can lose as much coral as you tried to save by skimping.

 

[jda]

I had the same concern about silica sand. I *think* this is the CaribSea sand I have. It's definitely not sharp, and it's obviously not aragonite or crushed coral or anything like that. I think this may be my best bet.

If your sand reacts AT ALL to vinegar, then it will bind the copper and medications that you are looking to QT with. You would never be able to sell that the sand was sharp just like people could not tell that breathing asbestos was like a trillion tiny razor blade cuts in their lungs... until it was too late.

 

[Fish Fan]

You would have to have guarantees from ReefCleaners that they never added any new stuff in that 76 days. I do not think that they can make this, but I have never asked them. Stuff comes and goes all of the time. Fishless systems help, but are no guarantee. If you are serious, I would do all of this yourself.

I asked about inverts shipped dry the other day - I get mine from ReefTopia and they ship snails and some things dry. The whole point is that all of this can mean fewer chances, but still not zero.

Inverts Shipped Dry

I know that anything is a risk, but do snails and hermits that are shipped dry have much risk of fish diseases making it through shipping? I don't really need any "why risk it" type of discussion, but does anybody know how tomonts, theronts, etc. would handle such an experience being out of water?

www.reef2reef.com

Interesting that they ship them dry. After fish parasites, I think nuisance algaes are my number 2 concern. I was going to ask more about that on the invert forum, as far as algaes coming on snail shells etc.

EDIT: Does anyone try to gently brush a snail shell with a soft toothbrush to knock algae off? Or even brushed hydrogen peroxide on their shell, carefully, of course?

That's a good point.

TTM works well for ich. It has a couple downsides. It does not treat any other diseases, and you have to have somewhere for the fish to go after the 14 days of transfers are over. It's also a bit of work.

If you plan on using copper, there really isn't a reason to do TTM.

TTM can work well as a prophylactic QT, in that it:
Takes care of ich.
If you combine Prazi with it, it takes care of flukes.
It sort-of screens for velvet, because after 14 days, you would know if the fish has velvet or not.
You don't have to have a cycled QT running to do TTM.

I see what you're saying, it would basically be a waste of saltwater if you're going to use copper anyway. Just a thought.

The last thing that I will add is that coral QT is no joke. It often needs to be a full-blown reef tank ideally with the same lights as your display. This is for the fish and coral parasites. Fishless coral tanks are not easy since the fish waste provides the best nutrients to the corals. Adding in no3 and po4 is not the same. The best coral QTs that I have seen have many shrimp and crabs that get fed a lot to do this same job. Ammonium dosing and juice from frozen food works pretty well too. If you skip on a coral QT you can lose as much coral as you tried to save by skimping.

I do plan on running the same lighting on my coral QT as my DT, and keep all parameters the same as best as I can. I was planning on a bare tank with a frag rack for the corals. Are you suggesting that with the corals it's more or less another full reef tank, which can have sand and rock since there's no medications?

A big question I've had all along is can I QT inverts like shrimp and crabs with my corals, or do I need one tank for coral and a second tank for inverts (and a third tank for fish). What you're saying is basically yes. I can keep crabs and shrimp and snails in the tank with the corals, which, as you pointed out, would be nutritionally beneficial to the corals. I have zero problems running three QT tanks, but two would be easier.

Thank you very much for your help, I really appreciate it!

 

[jda]

You are not going to keep nuisance algae or aiptasia out. Nobody ever has - those that say so just have not been doing it long enough. If you find somebody with a 10+ year old tank with neither, then be sure and point them out.

You will need consumers to control these things. Some are easier to do a full invert QT than others. For example, both peppermint shrimp and berghia eat aiptasia. Peppermints will survive a invert QT whereas berghia will starve.

 

[Fish Fan]

If your sand reacts AT ALL to vinegar, then it will bind the copper and medications that you are looking to QT with. You would never be able to sell that the sand was sharp just like people could not tell that breathing asbestos was like a trillion tiny razor blade cuts in their lungs... until it was too late.

Yeah, there's no way this stuff is reactive, but that's a good test and I'll double check.

 

[jda]

Yeah, there's no way this stuff is reactive, but that's a good test and I'll double check.

I only know Carib Sea to sell aragonite sand, but I am not well exposed to all of their offerings. Some play sand is aragonite if you live near a cost... it is silica inland. Play sand is just whatever is available locally.

 

[Fish Fan]

You are not going to keep nuisance algae or aiptasia out. Nobody ever has - those that say so just have not been doing it long enough. If you find somebody with a 10+ year old tank with neither, then be sure and point them out.

You will need consumers to control these things. Some are easier to do a full invert QT than others. For example, both peppermint shrimp and berghia eat aiptasia. Peppermints will survive a invert QT whereas berghia will starve.

I mean, I know you're right, but I at least hope to try to minimize what gets through. In the past I've had problems with various algaes, and I just would like to try to minimize what I can.

I only know Carib Sea to sell aragonite sand, but I am not well exposed to all of their offerings. Some play sand is aragonite if you live near a cost... it is silica inland. Play sand is just whatever is available locally.

CaribSea has a full line of freshwater substates in addition to their aragonite sands. I believe this is what I have:

CaribSea Freshwater Sand