Requesting to see examples of actual failed reef tank cycles from resident advisors

[brandon429]

This will be added to our 2023 updated cycling science study

The request is simple

Don't search out a post from 2013 with a bad api reading and link that as a failed cycle

Instead: Find and link an example of a startup cycle crash from a thread you were in at the time, and link it now. a dead fish, tank wipe


I think we're going to be waiting a while for an example... isn't that fascinating? The one major risk we were told we faced in reefing... where's one example of it?

Got two? I've been online 24 yrs, in threads for sure, and never seen one instance.

If all cycling approaches are working, which ones are no good or slow?

 

[brandon429]

it isn't possible to advise, write about, or study cycling in marine systems without discussing...actually seeing, this claimed bad outcome. we've all accepted years of training and never asked to actually see it, that's amazing to me.

what we train might change, if nobody can post...

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I don’t even understand what a startup cycle crash is, so I won’t be looking for examples.

 

[brandon429]

this is a simple request to see the one thing in cycling we're warned of, there should be many examples. a cycle that was attempted, it crashed, and the new animals died. it's the one thing we're all taught to avoid in reefing

lemme see one



I find it patently amazing that in the history of online reefing, its going to be this hard to find a failed cycle. we are not warned that it would be this hard to find any single fails. the risk of fail is taught as very pronounced, very much a risk in reefing. This is what I wanted to study by this thread, loss examples readers may not have seen

 

[Garf]

The one major risk we were told we faced in reefing... where's one example of it?

Hello Brandon. A lot of that is because you've spent years telling folk that a reading of 0.5ppm ammonia was a certain crash, grey water, fish jumping out, toxic ammonia emanations from the water, fire and brimstone. Nothing wrong with due diligence, however.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Still don’t know what you want, and I expect any example will be claimed unhealthy fish or something. But here’s the first one that came up in a search for fish that died in cycling, if that is a crash.

Cycling with fish = fish died why??

Hi Everyone, I tried the fish to cycle my tank and the fish died. 5gal tank Day 1 live sand and dried rock Day 2 let it sit Day 3 added turbo 900 and a firefish Day 4 fish dead -All levels 0 My only thoughts are that the heater has been erratic and found that it went from 78 to 82 even...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

Yes thank you. That's good to start a pattern of losses and we can try and see if by pattern ammonia did it, or other factors.


5gal tank
Day 1 live sand and dried rock
Day 2 let it sit
Day 3 added turbo 900 and a firefish
Day 4 fish dead
-All levels zero

That last part doesn't implicate a failed cycle but agreed: these examples are very rare. With fritz used too, most will agree that wasn't a cycle loss but it sure did happen early on that's for sure. Valid here appreciated. In order to find recurring loss themes we need some loss examples and that one is recent.

What would have made that a home run is if he posted the losses with a slightly green api pic, to show ammonia destruction. For sure everyone would believe ammonia did it then, without question.

I've seen threads on early fish loss where salinity acclimating was rushed as well, in Jays forum. I've never in all reefing seen ammonia crash a cycle, though, wanting to see who has


Appreciate that link.

 

[BeanAnimal]

This will be added to our 2023 updated cycling science study

Can you please define what the new science is?

The request is simple

Don't search out a post from 2013 with a bad api reading and link that as a failed cycle

That appears to be a catch22 request, as you historically have discounted such instances as "failed reading" -- "user error", etc.


Honest question: You say that you work off of patterns. How is it then that you refuse to acknowledge the validity of 40+ years of patterns in reef keeping. Patterns that follow known science and are daily proven via predictable outcomes?

Honest question: If "seneye" is so accurate, then why advise people to ignore any reading above zero as "error" and have them use "recalibrate" that as zero reference instead?

Failed Cycle: Part of the issue here is semantics. In almost all cases nitrifying bacteria will eventually prevail and the question is only a matter of time.

There are countless threads where people run into verifiable and documented instances of ammonia readings that you insist are impossible. Ignoring the argument about what level constitutes, danger, you can't just chalk all of these up to test kit or user error.

Please help! New tanks are crashing right off the bat!

I'm beyond frustrated, I'm disappointed in myself, and really need some help please. I haven't had a saltwater tank in quite a few years, so maybe my skills are rusty, I don't know. I wanted to get back into reefing, and I am planning a larger tank, but I decided I wanted to get started with a...

www.reef2reef.com

Dr Tim one and only doesn't seem to work for me for cycling new tank

In my previous two tanks, I used Dr. Tim’s One & Only, and both cycled in under two weeks. For my new 120g tank (see post), I started by mixing RODI water with Red Sea Blue Salt, then added 8oz of Dr. Tim’s One & Only, followed by ammonia to bring it to 2ppm. I followed Dr. Tim's instructions...

www.reef2reef.com

Is my cycle stuck?

Tank is only 6 days old and this is only my second time cycling a saltwater so I’m still a newbie in my eyes..I used Dr Tim’s Ammonia coupled with MicroBacter Starter XLM as well as a live rock from my smaller tank and biomedia in my canister. It promises to cycle a tank within a week but I’m...

www.reef2reef.com

Insane Ammonia Spike.. 8.0 +

Hey all. I’m in desperate need of answers. My 75 gal reef tank has 8.0+ of ammonia. Stocked with 2 clowns, a royal gramma, and a goby/ pistol shrimp pair. It also has a few different soft corals. This tank has been established for years. A few months back, our city flushed their system with...

www.reef2reef.com

Mini cycle

Hello, I bought a 120g used with sand and lots of rocks and tons of nems, and inverts a few days ago. I should have not reused the sand I'm realizing that now. Ammonia is 0.93 (hanna) nitrate 7.9 (hamna). I already had to do a massive water change about 60-70% because I couldnt transport all the...

www.reef2reef.com

The actual list of threads would take up pages.

So given that "Failed Cycle" is ambiguous and there are countless cases of "mini cycles" and "slow to start cycles" and "slow to progress cycles" -- what is the actual argument or point that you are trying to make?

 

[brandon429]

The second from the bottom link is an example we already fixed, indicating your will to try and turn this thread into argument

Post your links, redundant as they may be, without the typed word part next time.


I’m going to report you now, so what you write can be watched. I’m requiring you to not try and sway this into an argument, and you’re trying to bring beef over from the other thread they closed two minutes ago, I’m trying to have you stop getting my threads closed by what you write.

I had asked for links though, and that’s valid if you want to post them. I’ll go check one more to see if it’s a real breakdown you guided, a convincing one, for ammonia as the cause.

this one you quick grabbed was well worked to the counter of your claim.

Insane Ammonia Spike.. 8.0 +

Hey all. I’m in desperate need of answers. My 75 gal reef tank has 8.0+ of ammonia. Stocked with 2 clowns, a royal gramma, and a goby/ pistol shrimp pair. It also has a few different soft corals. This tank has been established for years. A few months back, our city flushed their system with...

www.reef2reef.com

In the opening thread, I asked all entrants to not just search out random posts (everyone feels their cycle is broken, we know) the goal was to have posters show work they did in deducing convincing causes for failed cycles. I’ll check another from the quick list above to see if you made a convincing case.

You solely have gotten three of my works closed, it censors my ability to gain pattern from willing inputs. At some point we will need to be managed externally. Again, notice, I post in zero threads you make…it’s all I can do to keep peace. Anywhere you begin, my thread gets closed and that sampling ends. I have no way to interact with that, and still get the reef data I use to write about.

 

[brandon429]

The report is also for direct off topic posting, which leads by bulk to the arguing that closes my threads

Dr Tim one and only doesn't seem to work for me for cycling new tank

In my previous two tanks, I used Dr. Tim’s One & Only, and both cycled in under two weeks. For my new 120g tank (see post), I started by mixing RODI water with Red Sea Blue Salt, then added 8oz of Dr. Tim’s One & Only, followed by ammonia to bring it to 2ppm. I followed Dr. Tim's instructions...

www.reef2reef.com

There is no crash on his second link, there’s no fish death there, that was the direct request I’d made.

using bulk to literally close this thread is the m.o.

like the one I reported earlier today.


No, that example above doesn’t fit here because it’s not a fish loss / tank stopping crash thread. That’s two for two randomly clicked links, they were links where you and I disagreed on status and opposite of what I requested for the thread.

I must move on with my block in place then. I took one chance to entertain a valid question.





Readers


In order to keep the links posted here of a pure recurring nature, so we can pull patterns from them, please only post cycle tank crashes that involve patterned fish loss, where you worked to isolate ammonia as the actor, not disease, acclimation or other causes of loss.

We want to see how you guided the discovery, the level of effort you personally make into crash tank work.

I want to sample how many times our reefing umpires have actually seen a cycle loss. I think it’s few/none/never so the request for links remains.

Continue searching for cycle crashes with loss we think are convincing, the patterns will speak for themselves.

wonder how many I’ll have been in 2/2 so far. Try and find non reef2reef cycle crash threads, with fish loss. That’s gold level data if you can find five or ten like that quick search list above.

Helpful hints for content guiding

mentioned above that I’d never seen a true cycle crash


Posting a link where I’m not in the thread would be very on point, it’d be something new.

The set of boundaries that keep this thread unique:

-new tank cycles where you think losses shown are strongly linked to a failed attempt to establish a basic biofilter. It’s beyond just what the thread title says when you search

-you were personally in the thread remarking on or discovering supporting proofs for why it’s linked here: we read your pattern breakdown to see how you sniff out causatives

-things actually died. Don’t post cycle argument threads, post loss threads you guided or can make a strong case for biofilter fail

I want to know how wide a margin there is for ethical reef tank cycling approaches. This type of sample needs time to build honest, helpful examples.

This hobby currently bases its best procedure cycle advice on the levels people relay into cycling threads using api test kits, for the most part. That causes large gaps in truth, in my opinion


I’ve never seen anyone in reefing ask to see the set list for failed cycles, where the warnings came from, it didn’t sound like an offensive inquiry to me at all.

 

[BeanAnimal]

The second from the bottom link is an example we already fixed, indicating your will to try and turn this thread into argument

You asked for links -- I provided a few of many.

You pointed specifically to one of them, claiming a "fix". There was no "fix" provided. You told the OP that his reading was an error and that his fish deaths had nothing to do with it and blamed bad test kits, among other things. You turned out to be wrong, his staff dosed his tank and caused the spike. The fish died and the readings were correct.

The same pattern holds true for the other posted threads.

Nobody is going to be able to provide you "proof" of anything if you refuse to acknowledge the proof as being valid.

In hopes of getting an actual answer, I am going to ask again:

What is the actual point you are trying to make?

Can you actually lay out the "new science" that you keep referring to?

 

[CHSUB]

imo, cycles don’t fail. The only example I can think of is Mars, maybe the Moon too and sure there are others. Jupiter’s moon Europa is an example of how resilient “cycles” are, maybe in its ocean?

 

[BeanAnimal]

imo, cycles don’t fail.

As I mentioned in my first response to Brandon (and the reason I have asked what is actual point is) -- the nitrogen cycle will almost always certainly progress one way or the other. It is one of the mechanisms that drives everything on this planet. That doesn't mean that in the context of a reef aquarium that it can't be interfered with or won't take time to progress based on various conditions.

Most of the threads and "problems" that people have in context to reef tanks are due to the stage of progression and capacity of the nitrogen cycle in their system, not that it does not exist.

This becomes a semantic word game about the definition of "crash" vs "temporary, but real problem".

 

[CHSUB]

This becomes a semantic word game about the definition of "crash" vs "temporary, but real problem".

This sounds right to me.

 

[brandon429]

I've looked into the matter a good while, i have my opinions on rates of expression on rates of biofilter failure in home marine systems

I think most people just assumed they failed regularly, and that it manifested in ways other than four dudes disagreeing on how much green tint is too much. The only objective thing I could measure, among a sea of subjectives, is whether stuff was dying or not

It isn't dying, is what I've found.



Before writing on the rates of occurrence of ammonia events, specifically in home reef tank cycles, I need to see the best pooled counter data available. Who better to ask


Impress me. Every cycling thread I've been in is test-kit driven, not loss driven. All of them. Since 2001. I've seen a streak I don't think sounds believable until we're tasked with direct example requests from posts where we made such a discovery.

 

[Garf]

It isn't dying, it's what I've found

Hospitals are full of people who aren't dead, doesn't mean they are perfectly ok, does it? The metric of death being the definition of failure is a bit sad. Have you got any fish? How about any other animals?

 

[FrugalReeferJon]

There are no failed startup reef tank cycles if that’s what you’re talking about. There are plenty of impatient reefers though.

 

[Uncle99]

Rock + Sand + Flow + Live rock piece = cycled.
Rock + Sand + Flow + 2 bacteria’s,+ 7 days =cycled.

Never once, in 40 years, did this equation not work for me.

Good old Mother Nature.

 

[IceNein]

I don't understand what the point of this is. I think most people agree that the nitrogen cycle is real, denitrifying bacteria are real and necessary, that animals are harmed by ammonia.

If we're looking for hard proof, well we're not going to get it on a hobbyist forum. Maybe you could go and talk to veterinarians specializing in marine fish, or marine biologists, maybe aquarists in public aquaria, because the fact is that I haven't heard of anyone doing a proper autopsy on our fishes including sending tissue samples out to labs to create prepared slides.

So was a fish death caused by ammonia, or was it caused by some other pre-existing condition, considering that most of these dying fish came straight out of a fish store? Was it another disease exacerbated by the stress of a too high ammonia level? Who knows? We certainly don't.

Is the argument that people don't need to cycle their tanks?

 

[klc]

This is the era of instant gratification, becoming an expert at something with a weekend of watching YouTube, All-In-One aquariums and bottles of magic elixir. In my time keeping marine aquaria, since about 1990 or so, I have NEVER had a tank "crash".

I'm not all that certain what a "crash" is but I can say that I've never had one. Perhaps a "crash" is when you go on vacation and your return pump fails leaving you with a green stinking mess with floating fish, or maybe it was the time you had that heater stick on and took your tank to 90, or maybe it's when something happened with your kalk reactor and dosed several gallons at once.

***In my mind a "crash" is an irreversible event that results in the necessity to drain and restart***

Having some loss of livestock due to high ammonia levels in a new startup totally isn't a "crash", in this case TIME is what is needed to fix the issue. But remember what I said early in my post, this is the era of instant gratification, and no one has the time or patience to just wait it out like we used to do. Everyone wants their Dory, Nemo and little garden of frag plugs right now.

Fill your tank with rodi, add salt and your rocks (please don't ask if your scape looks good), add a small cup of sand from an established tank or even shake out some dirty filter floss from an established tank, add a small fish and then just WAIT! A bottle of that magic elixir may or may not work for you, I have my doubts. In 30 days you'll have a tank that will support livestock at a slow pace. You don't need to test, you don't need to dose, you don't need to post about it, just let the nitrifying bacteria grow. If Nemo dies, it's NOT A CRASH. There are no cycle "crashes", only impatience, and maybe a little flawed "expert" advice thrown in.

A little harsh on my part you say? You bet! but it's the reality of it.