Sharing my Oceamo ICP-MS results from a fresh batch of blue Red Sea Salt

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

There are a couple ICP test results floating around that cover Red Sea Blue Bucket salt, but the ones I found are ICP-OES, and have a lot of zero values. I thought it would be interesting to perform an Oceamo ICP-MS test on a fresh batch of their latest blue Red Sea Salt. It was mixed with 18 meg DI water, and I did not mix up the salt powder before using.

I was surprised by the number of results within Oceamo’s “Ideal Values.”

Please share any thoughts you may have?

 

[Pod_01]

Looks ok to me, manganese is elevated but I seen it before. I recall some claim it is anti caking agent but Randy mentioned that is unlikely use for it. The other claim is that Manganese precipitates quickly so perhaps it is no issue.

Not sure why they recommended Tin? That seems odd… they want you to add some!!!

Any particular element recommendations you find odd/interesting?

I also seen recommendations to take ICP samples couple days after mixing fresh salt. Not sure what that does really.

Also from experience I found that I need to keep my hands out of the tank before or during sample collection. Took me some time to clue in but I had some really wonky results on some elements.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Reefahholic]

There are a couple ICP test results floating around that cover Red Sea Blue Bucket salt, but the ones I found are ICP-OES, and have a lot of zero values. I thought it would be interesting to perform an Oceamo ICP-MS test on a fresh batch of their latest blue Red Sea Salt. It was mixed with 18 meg DI water, and I did not mix up the salt powder before using.

I was surprised by the number of results within Oceamo’s “Ideal Values.”

Please share any thoughts you may have?

This has been my experience also. ICP-MS results come out pretty darn good. I’m very happy with it, and it mixes fast too.

I’ll link this thread to my FB thread, and also link my FB thread below if you want to see my ICP-MS results as well:

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Thx for sharing!

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

Looks ok to me, manganese is elevated but I seen it before. I recall some claim it is anti caking agent but Randy mentioned that is unlikely use for it. The other claim is that Manganese precipitates quickly so perhaps it is no issue.

Not sure why they recommended Tin? That seems odd… they want you to add some!!!

Any particular element recommendations you find odd/interesting?

I also seen recommendations to take ICP samples couple days after mixing fresh salt. Not sure what that does really.

Also from experience I found that I need to keep my hands out of the tank before or during sample collection. Took me some time to clue in but I had some really wonky results on some elements.

Thank you for sharing.

I was having an issue with burnt tips on JF Fox Flame, and the other Acropora in the tank were not right. A 20% water change would temporarily improve the health, but after a few days the problems would reappear. This went on for a very long time.

I was using blue Red Sea Salt, feeding LRS Reef Frenzy + occasional Roids or Benereef , Alk=7.5-8.0, Ca=410, Mg=1330, N=5-10, P=0.030-0.050, Flow 100x, Temp=79, PAR=300. Dosing B-Ionic 2-part every hour, N and P as required. I also tried vinegar and aminos, and there was essentially no change. The tank was started in 2021 with a combination of live and dry rock.

I am happy to report the problem was finally solved (knock on wood), and the ICP-MS test result of Red Sea Salt supports my suspicion.

I think I understand what happened, but a fresh set of eyes never hurt. Anybody care to take a swing at what they think the problem was? Hint- Trace elements

 

[Hans-Werner]

I was having an issue with burnt tips on JF Fox Flame, and the other Acropora in the tank were not right. A 20% water change would temporarily improve the health, but after a few days the problems would reappear. This went on for a very long time.

I was using blue Red Sea Salt, feeding LRS Reef Frenzy + occasional Roids or Benereef , Alk=7.5-8.0, Ca=410, Mg=1330, N=5-10, P=0.030-0.050, Flow 100x, Temp=79, PAR=300. Dosing B-Ionic 2-part every hour, N and P as required. I also tried vinegar and aminos, and there was essentially no change. The tank was started in 2021 with a combination of live and dry rock.

I am happy to report the problem was finally solved (knock on wood), and the ICP-MS test result of Red Sea Salt supports my suspicion.

I think I understand what happened, but a fresh set of eyes never hurt. Anybody care to take a swing at what they think the problem was? Hint- Trace elements

I think the problem might have been low phosphate. Since this is one of the most common problems the chances are good.

Also the Red Sea salt contains some concentrations of phosphate according to the analysis. In a few days the extra phosphate will be consumed and the problem returns.

Since burnt tips could be a problem with oxygen radicals my second guess would be low manganese or copper concentrations. - In case you insist on trace elements.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Burnt tips is usually high alk and low nutrients. i don't see an issue with the salt mix that seems a problem, IMO.

 

[djkms]

Thanks for posting this. Based on the various ICP tests out of various salts the one thing I found to be pretty consistent; Red Sea Blue salt is the closest to NSW amongst all the salts. I started out my recent tank with Aqua Forest Reef Salt due to everyone raving about how clean it mixes. The ICP tests however (and my own experience) had the elements all over the map. I now use Red Sea blue and am very pleased.

I used Reef Crystals on my last system due to the cost of the salt but man does it sure mix dirty. Had to clean out my storage container every other month it seemed.

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

This is the tank ICP-MS from 5/17 when tips were temporarily recovering after a major water change:

This is the ICP-MS 11 days later on 5/28 when the tips were once again burning. To make the situation even more puzzling, I was dosing an all-in-one trace element mixture during these 11 days:

Through the process of elimination, the one element that stood out was Iron as it decreased by 64% in 11 days. While 0.09ug/l would appear to be sufficient, I remember Randy stating that the form of iron is critical to its absorption, and iron depletes rapidly. This led me to suspect an iron deficiency.

To test the theory my plan was to use Randy’s suggestion of boosting iron 1-2ug/l. This only required a few drops of Ferrion, and I would do this daily for several days.

Within 24 hours, the results were absolutely stunning. The Fox Flame immediately started to heal, and all of the corals looked dramatically better. The tank was cured.

While some salts have elevated levels of iron (9.11ug/l - 32.97ug/l according to the Ultimate Salt Test on R2R), my theory was that Red Sea Salt did not. The 0.48ug/l results in the original post confirmed my suspicion.

With only 0.48ug/l, a 20% WC only increases iron 0.096ug/l, and this increase can deplete rapidly. It would appear the massive water changes and what I was feeding was insufficient to correct the deficiency.

Since then I have since adopted two experimental trace element plans. Two of my tanks use Tropic Marin A- & K+ Elements. This tank and my pico mixed reef use individual elements guided by ICP-MS. Both methods are working really well, and all four tanks experienced significant improvement with trace element additions.

Fox Flame May 2024 with burnt tips

Same Fox Flame 4 months later

There is no question Red Sea Salt is high quality salt, and mixes very close to NSW levels. I continue to use it exclusively. But unfortunately I believe in some cases there is a significant risk of iron deficiency. It’s interesting to note that Manganese also depletes quickly, and Red Sea contains a significantly elevated level of 105.0ug/l. Iron on the other hand is on the low end of NSW levels.

I’m trying to challenge myself to determine if I’m missing something, but for now I’m going with iron deficiency.

I was on the fence about sharing this story as it was not the intent of the original post, and this thread is now off on a bit of a tangent. But it was very discouraging spending ridiculous amounts of money on this tank, and spending three years trying different things and watching the tank struggle for unknown reasons. The miracle is it only took a few drops of iron fix the problem. It’s hard to believe I am the only one experiencing this issue, and hopefully other people can benefit from this experience.

 

[Pod_01]

Thank you for sharing,
Interesting about the iron… sometimes it can lead to algae but I guess there was a limitation…

Based on your description and the pictures I would have guessed PO4 limitation, as was mentioned.

So out of curiosity what was the all in one trace mixture you used during the 11days that didn’t help? Do you know if it contained iron?

Good to know TM A- & K+ Elements is working. I also observed positive results.

 

[Reefahholic]

I was having an issue with burnt tips on JF Fox Flame, and the other Acropora in the tank were not right. A 20% water change would temporarily improve the health, but after a few days the problems would reappear. This went on for a very long time.

I’ve had this happen from trace overdose about 5 years ago maybe. A water change would temporarily stop the event but as the doser added it back it would start again.

I think the problem might have been low phosphate. Since this is one of the most common problems the chances are good.

That is usually my first guess and super common. Probably number one reason for dying SPS from what I’ve seen. Although in his case, I think he may have overdosed some traces.

 

[Reefahholic]

I may have to change my mind after looking at the first ICP again and the corals. It could be the Mn overdose, but may be more likely to be the low P. That Fox-flame was already looking pale under the tips if you zoom in. If it was getting pegged by the light, that could have did it.

 

[Reefahholic]

 

[RelaxingWithTheReef]

I may have to change my mind after looking at the first ICP again and the corals. It could be the Mn overdose, but may be more likely to be the low P. That Fox-flame was already looking pale under the tips if you zoom in. If it was getting pegged by the light, that could have did it.

I think there is a misunderstanding. There was never a Mn overdose. The ICP results in post #1 where Mn=105.0ug/l is not my tank. It's fresh Ref Sea Salt mixed earlier this month. The test was performed for reference.

From post #8
When tips were recovering on 5/17 after a large WC, Mn=0.18ug/l, P=0.044ppm, Fe=0.25ug/l
When tips were burning again 11 day later on 5/28, Mn=0.23ug/l, P=0.067ppm. Fe=0.09ug/l

The picture with your arrows was taken today. The coral has been growing nicely since recovery in May, and there is no sign of burning for 4 months and counting. Not sure what the white spot is, it could be an artifact or something as the photo was taken quickly with an iphone.

The first time I ever dosed trace elements was on 5/17. I used TM A- & K+. It's a great product, but I don't think it contains enough iron to correct this type of deficiency in just a few days. If it did, you would probably have a tank full of GHA in short order due to an iron OD.

 

[Reefahholic]

I think there is a misunderstanding. There was never a Mn overdose. The ICP results in post #1 where Mn=105.0ug/l is not my tank. It's fresh Ref Sea Salt mixed earlier this month. The test was performed for reference.

You are right. I forgot. Been a long night aquascaping some rock in the garage.

The level of Mn in your tank definitely wouldn’t have did it. Salt was extremely high though.

Maybe the coral just looks pale the way the light is hitting it. If it’s been growing recently it sounds like it recovered.

I had a Bali Green Slimer I blasted with light that got pale on the tips first and then started to STN from low P. When I corrected it, the coral recovered. Hard to say what happened here as the numbers aren’t too bad. There’s several depleted elements, that need correction, so maybe that contributed, but I don’t think it was the main cause. The P is very low. He’s only reporting the orthophosphate value on ICP-MS (photometer), but due to the added stabilizer it’s been very accurate. I do prefer the total-phosphorus value of the OES though. That would have given us more data here. Who knows, could be something in the tank that is not tested by ICP.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is the tank ICP-MS from 5/17 when tips were temporarily recovering after a major water change:

This is the ICP-MS 11 days later on 5/28 when the tips were once again burning. To make the situation even more puzzling, I was dosing an all-in-one trace element mixture during these 11 days:

Through the process of elimination, the one element that stood out was Iron as it decreased by 64% in 11 days. While 0.09ug/l would appear to be sufficient, I remember Randy stating that the form of iron is critical to its absorption, and iron depletes rapidly. This led me to suspect an iron deficiency.

To test the theory my plan was to use Randy’s suggestion of boosting iron 1-2ug/l. This only required a few drops of Ferrion, and I would do this daily for several days.

Within 24 hours, the results were absolutely stunning. The Fox Flame immediately started to heal, and all of the corals looked dramatically better. The tank was cured.

While some salts have elevated levels of iron (9.11ug/l - 32.97ug/l according to the Ultimate Salt Test on R2R), my theory was that Red Sea Salt did not. The 0.48ug/l results in the original post confirmed my suspicion.

With only 0.48ug/l, a 20% WC only increases iron 0.096ug/l, and this increase can deplete rapidly. It would appear the massive water changes and what I was feeding was insufficient to correct the deficiency.

Since then I have since adopted two experimental trace element plans. Two of my tanks use Tropic Marin A- & K+ Elements. This tank and my pico mixed reef use individual elements guided by ICP-MS. Both methods are working really well, and all four tanks experienced significant improvement with trace element additions.

Fox Flame May 2024 with burnt tips

Same Fox Flame 4 months later

There is no question Red Sea Salt is high quality salt, and mixes very close to NSW levels. I continue to use it exclusively. But unfortunately I believe in some cases there is a significant risk of iron deficiency. It’s interesting to note that Manganese also depletes quickly, and Red Sea contains a significantly elevated level of 105.0ug/l. Iron on the other hand is on the low end of NSW levels.

I’m trying to challenge myself to determine if I’m missing something, but for now I’m going with iron deficiency.

I was on the fence about sharing this story as it was not the intent of the original post, and this thread is now off on a bit of a tangent. But it was very discouraging spending ridiculous amounts of money on this tank, and spending three years trying different things and watching the tank struggle for unknown reasons. The miracle is it only took a few drops of iron fix the problem. It’s hard to believe I am the only one experiencing this issue, and hopefully other people can benefit from this experience.

If iron dosing seems to be beneficial in your system, it is certainly an easy one to dose with no real risk of overdosing. I recommend it for most people.