To Balance pH at night would you rather…

[MnFish1]

I should also be clear, I'm not worried about coral growth. My corals are growing nicely. If it were just coral growth I wouldn't care about pH very much.

Salem's work is suggesting that pH swings might be a primary culprit in causing small, cumulative "biotic stresses" to corals. By itself, this may not be an issue for most corals but as other biotic stresses come up it could lead to a tipping point in which the coral's holobiont diminishes or even turns against it.

My thinking here is, pH stability might be something I can influence. If so, it might keep my corals healthier longterm by supporting a healthy holobiont.

Most of reef keeping is personal experience. This is something you will develop in the mean time - Many people keeping coral - disagree with 'salem'

 

[Tritie]

@dthom and @Randy Holmes-Farley , we might have to start a Reefkeepers With a Beekeeping Problem club....or would it be Beekeepers with a Reefkeeping Problem??

13 colonies for me! Just backyard beekeeping but already too much to manage!

 

[DanyL]

This is a quote from Fauna Marine: "photosynthesis of corals and bacterial activity have significant influence on the acid content of the limited amount of water. In the course of a few months, the pH usually decreases and mostly settles between 7.6 and 8.1. The aquarium lighting also causes day/night fluctuations which can build up to 0.5 pH units."

Well, I went and looked where this quite was taken from, and I think context is relevant here.

What they say here is that consumption of calcium bi/carbonate in closed system can significantly decrease PH - but we know this, because it’ll decrease alkalinity and thus also influence the acidity of the water.

How do I know this is what they are referring to? Because their remedy to this problem is to use their Balling light method, which supplements calcium bi/carbonate back to system.

However - photosynthesis does increase PH.
It’s a parallel process to the consumption of calcium bi/carbonate which decreases it significantly - but once you cancel it by dosing, you’re remaining with an increase in PH.

Now admittedly it’s been awhile since I actually followed my PH fluctuations and the goal of my frag compartment didn’t have anything to do with PH, but when I did measure it years ago and compared day/night was insignificant enough for me to believe it did something.

 

[MnFish1]

Well, I went and looked where this quite was taken from, and I think context is relevant here.

What they say here is that consumption of calcium bi/carbonate in closed system can significantly decrease PH - but we know this, because it’ll decrease alkalinity and thus also influence the acidity of the water.

How do I know this is what they are referring to? Because their remedy to this problem is to use their Balling light method, which supplements calcium bi/carbonate back to system.

However - photosynthesis does increase PH.
It’s a parallel process to the consumption of calcium bi/carbonate which decreases it significantly - but once you cancel it by dosing, you’re remaining with an increase in PH.

Now admittedly it’s been awhile since I actually followed my PH fluctuations and the goal of my frag compartment didn’t have anything to do with PH, but when I did measure it years ago and compared day/night was insignificant enough for me to believe it did something.

The question - was about pH daily fluctuations in a reef tank. IMHO. the Original poster is within the normal daily variation - and should continue doing what he/she is doing

 

[DanyL]

The question - was about pH daily fluctuations in a reef tank. IMHO. the Original poster is within the normal daily variation - and should continue doing what he/she is doing

Hmm look again - it says at night.

 

[Poseidon03]

I agree to just keep doing what you are doing if you want to keep pH stable. Dosing kalk and night and/or refugium will just cause your pH to be higher and still swing. It will just have a higher peak and higher valley.

If you want the benefits of increased pH and the nutrient reduction, do a refugium. If you want a different way for alk and cal control and a higher pH, dose kalk.

 

[MnFish1]

Hmm look again - it says at night.

Hmmmm...I know - I answered the question

 

[MnFish1]

Hmm look again - it says at night.

It's still within the daily average fluctuation. Which Is why I posted the article. Imho - trying to mess with pH is going to cause far more issues than not doing so - but to again answer his question - Kalk is easier to follow/correct etc - as compared to an algae refugium

 

[CBonito]

Mines all over the place and my corals grow just fine in 7.8-8.1 that’s my norm… I hit 8.2 by leaving my doors open the other day cause we had nice weather finally lol.. I quit chasing it and my tank runs better for it!

Yeah same here. I love my 8.03-8.14 through the whole day problem.

 

[MnFish1]

Hmm look again - it says at night.

BTW - in case you weren't aware - the changes of pH occur at night.....that was understandable before answering the question in the way I did - Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?.

 

[MnFish1]

Well, I went and looked where this quite was taken from, and I think context is relevant here.

What they say here is that consumption of calcium bi/carbonate in closed system can significantly decrease PH - but we know this, because it’ll decrease alkalinity and thus also influence the acidity of the water.

How do I know this is what they are referring to? Because their remedy to this problem is to use their Balling light method, which supplements calcium bi/carbonate back to system.

However - photosynthesis does increase PH.
It’s a parallel process to the consumption of calcium bi/carbonate which decreases it significantly - but once you cancel it by dosing, you’re remaining with an increase in PH.

Now admittedly it’s been awhile since I actually followed my PH fluctuations and the goal of my frag compartment didn’t have anything to do with PH, but when I did measure it years ago and compared day/night was insignificant enough for me to believe it did something.

Thanks for confirming the article and what I said

 

[DanyL]

BTW - in case you weren't aware - the changes of pH occur at night.....that was understandable before answering the question in the way I did - Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point?.

Ok, now I’m confused haha

Yes I’m well aware that PH changes occur at night. I also never advocated to chase it either, but simply suggested another option to the mix to someone that was already interested in doing so.

You quoted my post where I suggested this third option - running a light to grow corals at night in a separated compartment in the sump, basically a fuge with corals.

Your answer to my post (or maybe it wasn’t supposed to be an answer to my post?) was the quote from Fauna Marine, which I later addressed and gave my opinion on.

Perhaps I’m the one missing the point?

 

[MnFish1]

Ok, now I’m confused haha

Yes I’m well aware that PH changes occur at night. I also never advocated to chase it either, but simply suggested another option to the mix to someone that was already interested in doing so.

You quoted my post where I suggested this third option - running a light to grow corals at night in a separated compartment in the sump, basically a fuge with corals.

Your answer to my post (or maybe it wasn’t supposed to be an answer to my post?) was the quote from Fauna Marine, which I later addressed and gave my opinion on.

Perhaps I’m the one missing the point?

I agree with you running the light at night. The post from Fauna Marine was merely to say that pH in a tank is going to vary more than in this ocean - and that the answer to his question - is nothing needs to be done - but if so, my recommendation would be dosing alkalinity/kalk at night

 

[DanyL]

I agree with you running the light at night. The post from Fauna Marine was merely to say that pH in a tank is going to vary more than in this ocean - and that the answer to his question - is nothing needs to be done - but if so, my recommendation would be dosing alkalinity/kalk at night

So I was indeed the one missing the point than, thanks for clarifying it.

And yes, I do agree with you that PH fluctuations at night aren’t as significant to coral as fluctuations during the day.

 

[beesnreefs]

Off topic a bit but I just wanna say what a breath of fresh air it is to watch the conversation between @MnFish1 and @DanyL. Two people able to talk through a misunderstanding on an online forum is a special treat we need more of in this world. Thanks for modeling for the rest of us how respectful discourse can happen.

 

[Saminpa]

I run a chaeto reactor 16 hours a day. It comes on 2 hours before my light cycle and goes off 2 hours after the light cycle begins. Growing chaeto has improved my water clarity, keeps my nitrates in line, and with having it growling overnight my ph swing is about .10-.15 daily. That isn’t a flatline ph, but I'm usually constantly 8.15-8.30 everyday.before the reactor my daily swing was .25-.40

 

[Damien Buckley]

I use a CO2 scrubber on the inlet of my skimmer, have a refugium and an algae reactor on overnight (16 hours). I dose Nopox from 6pm to 6am and my pH is still low - 7.5-7.7.

My coral is fine but I am concerned about my fish at this level. Alk is steady at 9.2dkh.

Any ideas?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for the input, friends.

I am seeing a swing in pH of approximately 0.2 - 0.3 points. In the winter it peaks at 8.1 - 8.15 during the day and bottoms out at 7.9ish at night. During the summer the numbers are a bit higher.

Especially given the research of folks like Salem Clemens (suggesting pH swings may be causing "biotic stress" to corals) I'm trying to decide if it's worth chasing pH a bit. Ultimately, I'd like to find a way to keep the pH up at night, not necessarily raise pH across the board.

I've never dosed Kalkwasser and I've never run a fuge. Was wondering if one or the other would be better at keeping system pH up overnight.

What is the data that a pH swing causes stress?

 

[beesnreefs]

What is the data that a pH swing causes stress?

Fair question @Randy Holmes-Farley

He mentions it in this article: https://reefbuilders.com/2024/01/22...obiome-a-molecular-pathway-for-coral-disease/

And in a private conversation Salem said that based on his research and the papers he’s read, he believes pH (level and stability) is as important as salinity and alkalinity

 

[Ishy]

I recently set up a fuge in our 7ft. It has had a significant impact on the night time pH.
The red line shows where I fitted a much more powerful light and shows even more impact, not only the night time but the day time pH has gone up.
The difference between the two is now less than 0.1.