What is your Most desired fish if Hawaii Ban is lifted?

[Rocky Mountain Reef]

Mine is now 5 years old

great to see you have a Potters for so long. Dr. Reef refuses to sell them any more, claiming they all die in quarantine and don't eat. I can get captive bred on Biota for $900. What do you think about the viability of them and in particular captive bred?

 

[Biota_Marine]

Just for fun I did a quick scan of the 82 posts so far and created a list, below, to see what was popular and available. By available I mean captive bred, raised, knowing prices may be different or availability limited. I'm not trying to open that can of worms.

Yellow tang, Cleaner Wrasse, and Potters are available. If I counted correctly Potters Angel is the most popular. I personally wasn't thinking of a Moray but it was mentioned a few times. Chevron tang is right up there with the Yellow. Rest sort of hung in there with the Crosshatch Trigger showing a strong presence.

A few fish I forgot what they looked like so this was fun to go back and see. Pretty fish all.

Karen Brittan used to breed bandits regularly but I haven't seen any batches in the past few years.

Black tang are another Zebrasoma so we'll see when they're available

 

[Biota_Marine]

lol sorry biota. I appreciate what you do and your efforts but this price is insane. Hard pass from me at this price. You’re charging 10x for captive bred

We just started successfully breeding them so this project is in it's infancy. Once the success rate with breeding them is higher the pricing will go down. Pre-ban they were around $250 for a good quality/source one.

There's also others trying to breed them and a few that gave up. Ultimately we want to see more of them hitting the marketplace because a few people mentioned that they forgot about this very cool fish.

 

[zen]

I don't really see it as a bad thing. A yellow tang is a big fish that needs a big tank, after spending thousands to set up a 6' plus reef tank does it really matter if the fish is $40 or $165? Break that cost down over the 15-25 years that such a fish should live and the difference is trivial, but it may give pause to the people who used to see a cheap pretty fish and impulse buy them to go die in a 20 gallon tank.

 

[Northern Flicker]

lol sorry biota. I appreciate what you do and your efforts but this price is insane. Hard pass from me at this price. You’re charging 10x for captive bred

Why is it insane?

This is how you fund future projects, this is good. In a hobby full of people willing to spend $4000 USD on a fancy Red Sea system, I don't know why the line is drawn at supporting the CB movement and getting quality animals.

 

[Northern Flicker]

Im lucky to have 6 and for over 5 years now

Hittin us with that cabbage leather to start the day <3 Nice fish!

 

[areefer01]

lol sorry biota. I appreciate what you do and your efforts but this price is insane. Hard pass from me at this price. You’re charging 10x for captive bred

They actually had a sale on them not too long ago. I don't remember if it was earlier in the year or late last. In any case it was 700 USD. Every once in a while they have sales.

 

[BZOFIQ]

They actually had a sale on them not too long ago. I don't remember if it was earlier in the year or late last. In any case it was 700 USD. Every once in a while they have sales.

truly a steal.

 

[VintageReefer]

I'll use somebody's else's logic from few posts earlier here.

We are already buying 100K cars - what's another $900 dollars for the fish you always wanted - a drop in the sea.



My own logic - this is insanity, keep it!

Ok well my car comes with several YEARS of bumper to bumper warranty and lemon protection if it is unfixable. If the fish has a 3,4,5 year alive guarantee Ill buy for 900.

 

[VintageReefer]

We just started successfully breeding them so this project is in it's infancy. Once the success rate with breeding them is higher the pricing will go down. Pre-ban they were around $250 for a good quality/source one.

There's also others trying to breed them and a few that gave up. Ultimately we want to see more of them hitting the marketplace because a few people mentioned that they forgot about this very cool fish.

This is great news! I feel $250 is reasonable and look forward to this

Don’t get me wrong for my last post…I do appreciate the work you are doing to bring this fish’s availability back to us and do feel some extra money is justified for the efforts involved. I thought 900 was the long term cost for the fish but if it will be coming down to 250$ that is great news and completely reasonable.

Thank you!

 

[MarineandReef Jaron]

I would buy a potters for $250 but not $900. My disappointment with captive breeding is I have hoped it would mean a lowering of prices of expensive fish so we would see less of a price discrepancy. It can't be much more difficult to breed Gem tangs than Yellow tangs. I would like to see $300 Gem Tangs. Or $400, Bandit Angels. This would be worth it.

I personally do not feel it is any more ethical to buy captive breed vs sustainably wild collected so the only reason I would buy captive bred is if it is cheaper or there is some benefit such as a finicky eater being raised on prepared foods.

 

[Viking_Reefing]

I already have a Hawaiian Achilles so the only other Hawaiian fish I would really get my hands on is a bandit angel.

 

[areefer01]

truly a steal.

Depends on ones view point. We do not know the age of a wild caught. We would know a rough estimate of a captive bred. Life span on Potter's Angelfish in the wild is six years (Tinker, 1944). Does that mean longer in captivity? I don't know as I'm not a marine biologist. I would like to think we can provide a less stressful environment but don't know if that translates 1 to 1, etc.

Point is maybe it balances out in the long run due to purchasing a known younger fish than the unknown of wild. So we get to enjoy it more. Pennies on the day at least when I look at it this way.

Edit: btw - not trying to sell you one or a fly a fur coat. Just providing how I personally go about buying fish or equipment for this hobby. Hope your day is well.

 

[Biota_Marine]

I would buy a potters for $250 but not $900. My disappointment with captive breeding is I have hoped it would mean a lowering of prices of expensive fish so we would see less of a price discrepancy. It can't be much more difficult to breed Gem tangs than Yellow tangs. I would like to see $300 Gem Tangs. Or $400, Bandit Angels. This would be worth it.

I personally do not feel it is any more ethical to buy captive breed vs sustainably wild collected so the only reason I would buy captive bred is if it is cheaper or there is some benefit such as a finicky eater being raised on prepared foods.

Many people think that it should make the pricing cheaper but what's cheaper than going out on a boat and casting a large net to grab hundreds of fish and dozens of species? Many species take months just to go from egg to sellable sizing in addition to the years of conditioning or trials that go into a species. We also breed in remote places like Palau so we have the same shipping costs as wild collectors.

It has made a couple species cheaper like dejongi were $3k before we had consistent ability to breed them and we offer them at $600/each but also some species more expensive like the mandarins and yellow tang.

Even if you didn't care about the benefits of captive breeding (sustainability, longevity, eating prepared diets, lower chances of disease or illness, ect.) it's important to have alternatives to keep consistency, growth, and innovation in the hobby.

I always use clownfish as an example because to breed an orange ocellaris and any designer clownfish is the exact same time, process, and resources but we always compare wild price to captive-bred price as if they're the same thing.

 

[MarineandReef Jaron]

Many people think that it should make the pricing cheaper but what's cheaper than going out on a boat and casting a large net to grab hundreds of fish and dozens of species? Many species take months just to go from egg to sellable sizing in addition to the years of conditioning or trials that go into a species. We also breed in remote places like Palau so we have the same shipping costs as wild collectors.

It has made a couple species cheaper like dejongi were $3k before we had consistent ability to breed them and we offer them at $600/each but also some species more expensive like the mandarins and yellow tang.

Even if you didn't care about the benefits of captive breeding (sustainability, longevity, eating prepared diets, lower chances of disease or illness, ect.) it's important to have alternatives to keep consistency, growth, and innovation in the hobby.

I always use clownfish as an example because to breed an orange ocellaris and any designer clownfish is the exact same time, process, and resources but we always compare wild price to captive-bred price as if they're the same thing.

I am not a basher on captive breeding. I do not order from many online vendors but I do buy from Biota direct. I love the clams and finicky eaters like mandarins. The livestock I have ordered has been in great health and well worth the price.

I do however object to the notion that there is no such thing as sustainable wild collection. I have a degree in wildlife conservation and a central premise of the founders of the wildlife management movement was that there is a sustainable amount of "take" that can be taken from a given ecosystem sustainably. In fact, much of the science in wildlife conservation centers around finding the optimal amount of wildlife that can be harvested based on the rate of the species.

Whether it be deer that can be hunted, trees that can be taken for lumber, food fishing, aquarium collection, or even whaling, an amount can be taken sustainably.

Moreover, the forest as much belongs to the backpacker as it does the hunter, fisherman, and off-road vehicle explorer. Likewise, the reef belongs to the diver, food fisherman, and collector alike. We want it to be sustainable but to simply eliminate all collection out of some sense of moral obligation is operating upon a moral framework that I believe is fundamentally flawed.

 

[Northern Flicker]

I am not a basher on captive breeding. I do not order from many online vendors but I do buy from Biota direct. I love the clams and finicky eaters like mandarins. The livestock I have ordered has been in great health and well worth the price.

I do however object to the notion that there is no such thing as sustainable wild collection. I have a degree in wildlife conservation and a central premise of the founders of the wildlife management movement was that there is a sustainable amount of "take" that can be taken from a given ecosystem sustainably. In fact, much of the science in wildlife conservation centers around finding the optimal amount of wildlife that can be harvested based on the rate of the species.

Whether it be deer that can be hunted, trees that can be taken for lumber, food fishing, aquarium collection, or even whaling, an amount can be taken sustainably.

Moreover, the forest as much belongs to the backpacker as it does the hunter, fisherman, and off-road vehicle explorer. Likewise, the reef belongs to the diver, food fisherman, and collector alike. We want it to be sustainable but to simply eliminate all collection out of some sense of moral obligation is operating upon a moral framework that I believe is fundamentally flawed.

Where is this coming from?

I don't think Biota or anyone else has said anything to the contrary. Some of us prefer not to remove wild animals from the wild for our own entertainment, but that's a decision we make. There are so many upsides to captive breeding, and really the only downside is that individuals must be willing to pay a bit more (for now).

Using deer as an example is not a fair comparison, as deer overpopulate regions and become pests, while our decorative fish (outside of Lions and a few select others) are not needing intervention due to them becoming pests in their environment. Animals don't exist so you can harvest them, and comparing species that require control or are being used for food, with species that are being captured for a luxury hobby is not a good comparison.

 

[Biota_Marine]

I am not a basher on captive breeding. I do not order from many online vendors but I do buy from Biota direct. I love the clams and finicky eaters like mandarins. The livestock I have ordered has been in great health and well worth the price.

I do however object to the notion that there is no such thing as sustainable wild collection. I have a degree in wildlife conservation and a central premise of the founders of the wildlife management movement was that there is a sustainable amount of "take" that can be taken from a given ecosystem sustainably. In fact, much of the science in wildlife conservation centers around finding the optimal amount of wildlife that can be harvested based on the rate of the species.

Whether it be deer that can be hunted, trees that can be taken for lumber, food fishing, aquarium collection, or even whaling, an amount can be taken sustainably.

Moreover, the forest as much belongs to the backpacker as it does the hunter, fisherman, and off-road vehicle explorer. Likewise, the reef belongs to the diver, food fisherman, and collector alike. We want it to be sustainable but to simply eliminate all collection out of some sense of moral obligation is operating upon a moral framework that I believe is fundamentally flawed.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand and agree there is sustainable wild collection. There are many programs out there that aid in improving take for our hobby which often results in better quality animals and care through the chain of custody. Things like RVS' net training programs or any incentives against cyanide fishing.

We offer it as an alternative and not as a complete solution. There's always species that will likely need to get taken from the wild brecause of limitations on captive-breeding or pricing. Like we likely could breed moorish idols but the price due to thier incredibly long and difficult life stage would make their price astroniomical.

I personally wish there was a ton more data on many of the fisheries involved in the aquarium trade. Half the time when reading through papers they're polar opposites in collected data or many species data doesn't exist.

 

[BZOFIQ]

...Hope your day is well.

Thank you, wish you the same.

 

[eliaslikesfish]

Why is it insane?

This is how you fund future projects, this is good. In a hobby full of people willing to spend $4000 USD on a fancy Red Sea system, I don't know why the line is drawn at supporting the CB movement and getting quality animals.

to be fair, I can and would gladly spend $1000 on a fish, I’m not gonna think twice. However, $1000 for a fish is simply just a lot of money, there’s no way around that, it’s a fact

 

[VintageReefer]

Why is it insane?

This is how you fund future projects, this is good. In a hobby full of people willing to spend $4000 USD on a fancy Red Sea system, I don't know why the line is drawn at supporting the CB movement and getting quality animals.

Would you buy a 100,000 car and then put a 25,000 part on it? With no warranty? And that part was 5000 a few years ago?

Again, I’m not against Biota in any way and I do think what they are doing is great. The 900$ price tag on a 150$ Fish was extreme to me. Biota has chimed in and said the program is in infancy and they expect price to drop to 250 in the future. Perfectly reasonable to me