Clownfish behavior 21 days into QT

[zyrzyxen]

Hello I have had a pair of clowns and pink watchman goby in QT and it’s day 21 with Copper Power at 2.5 and having finished metro, focus and api go but my orange clown seems to have been laying on the edge with my other clown rubbing against the other. During QT my orange clown has seen great recovery even having its find grow back but this change in behavior is the only thing now worrying.

QT is still in therapeutic copper levels, not sure if I should do a full water change to drop the copper levels down and just observe the next several weeks.

I’ve attached a video excuse the dirtiness. It’s a water change/clean day.

 

[MnFish1]

1. Unfortunately can't see the video - loading one to YouTube works better
2. It's difficult to comment on your QT , since we do not use that method. However, to simply answer your question - it does not sound like copper is the issue - though you could verify your level to make sure it's not 'wrong' for some reason. Additionally, it would be great to see a video of the clowns.
3. To answer your question, you could dilute your copper a very little. so it's not sitting on the edge of toxicity - since your fish are acting abnormal. (I meant like to get a level of 2.4).
4. I'm considering the fact that your fish could have a disease not treated by your regimen.

 

[zyrzyxen]

1. Unfortunately can't see the video - loading one to YouTube works better
2. It's difficult to comment on your QT , since we do not use that method. However, to simply answer your question - it does not sound like copper is the issue - though you could verify your level to make sure it's not 'wrong' for some reason. Additionally, it would be great to see a video of the clowns.
3. To answer your question, you could dilute your copper a very little. so it's not sitting on the edge of toxicity - since your fish are acting abnormal. (I meant like to get a level of 2.4).
4. I'm considering the fact that your fish could have a disease not treated by your regimen.

Hopefully this helps:

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello I have had a pair of clowns and pink watchman goby in QT and it’s day 21 with Copper Power at 2.5 and having finished metro, focus and api go but my orange clown seems to have been laying on the edge with my other clown rubbing against the other. During QT my orange clown has seen great recovery even having its find grow back but this change in behavior is the only thing now worrying.

QT is still in therapeutic copper levels, not sure if I should do a full water change to drop the copper levels down and just observe the next several weeks.

I’ve attached a video excuse the dirtiness. It’s a water change/clean day.

Did you mix these meds?
Any reason you used metro and focus? Metro must be used precisely at .5gm by weight which is a Very tiny amount and fish looks very week and even moribund. Best chance will be a separate tank with added aeration and assure salinity is not high or low when set up.

 

[zyrzyxen]

Did you mix these meds?
Any reason you used metro and focus? Metro must be used precisely at .5gm by weight which is a Very tiny amount and fish looks very week and even moribund. Best chance will be a separate tank with added aeration and assure salinity is not high or low when set up.

I followed this from humblefish

 

[vetteguy53081]

I followed this from humblefish

First issue I see is the copper additions are known as ramping and in essence you want to get to treatment level within 24 hours. Ramping was an old method used many years ago with Ionic copper (cupramine) and Increasing copper level slowly can allow the disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease.
Metroplex is a protozoan use treatment as is copper and mixing the two Not recommended

 

[zyrzyxen]

First issue I see is the copper additions are known as ramping and in essence you want to get to treatment level within 24 hours. Ramping was an old method used many years ago with Ionic copper (cupramine) and Increasing copper level slowly can allow the disease to gain resistance making it harder to treat given disease.
Metroplex is a protozoan use treatment as is copper and mixing the two Not recommended

In terms of the copper I went to 2.5 within 24 hours.

 

[UGASealDawg]

I am unfamiliar with your treatment regimen so I can't comment on that.

However, I've seen clownfish display this behaviour when stressed out - they aren't happy about something. I would suggest a 50% water change and ensure that you are getting proper aeration. Other than the behaviour, he looks very healthy from what I could see. It does appear that your two clowns are bonded. If they progress, one will likely grow larger and become female.

My first reaction is to get the clowns in a healthy base state of water - i.e no additives, highly aerated, adequate water movement.

 

[zyrzyxen]

I am unfamiliar with your treatment regimen so I can't comment on that.

However, I've seen clownfish display this behaviour when stressed out - they aren't happy about something. I would suggest a 50% water change and ensure that you are getting proper aeration. Other than the behaviour, he looks very healthy from what I could see. It does appear that your two clowns are bonded. If they progress, one will likely grow larger and become female.

My first reaction is to get the clowns in a healthy base state of water - i.e no additives, highly aerated, adequate water movement.

I will do so right away. I have a some filter running full go with an HOB in full swing. I’ll try adding an air stone as well.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I followed this from humblefish

Tough to see clearly, but I think I got a glimpse of what I call "clownfish bruising". This is an issue with an unknown cause. There are some pictures at this link, let me know if your fish looks the same:

Clownfish bruising/lesion?

All, Over the past two years or so, I've come across dozens of cases on the fish disease forum here of an issue with clownfish that we have not been able to identify. I've never seen it on any clownfish I've had myself, but the issue seems most common on designer clowns, which I don't work...

www.reef2reef.com

That procedure you outlined has some flaws: General Cure has two components in it that have two different oral doses, plus you CANNOT just soak food in medication and ever hope to get the dose correct. People do this because its easy, not because it works. Also, the copper dose needs to be 2.25 ppm, brought up in less than 48 hours.

I'm a little concerned because this process is very heavy on metronidazole; General Cure has metronidazole in it, so does metroplex. It looks to me that metro is dosed multiple times in the water as well as the uncontrolled dose in the food. Orally, the proper dose for metro is 1 to 2% by weight of food, so you need to have a gram scale to do this properly.

 

[zyrzyxen]

Just wanted to update. A little over 30 days have passed in full copper treatment. From the last update I lowered copper levels to 2.35. The smaller orange storm clown still spends most of its day laying on the front pane of the glass. This is behavior that’s persisted for I’d like to say a good week now. Any insight on what this might be? I’ve searched posts “clownfish laying” and I’ve seen info possibly regarding flukes so I was going to do a prazipro treatment but I thought I’d ask.

 

[ariellemermaid]

I followed this from humblefish

I’m an avid follower of Humble Fish and QT everything that goes into the tank. Where on earth did you get this?! It’s so complicated with so many different medications and mixing meds with food! I’m just wondering if it’s someone’s own adaptation (3/4 down it refers to Humble fish in the 3rd person). As Jay said it double doses metro 2 different ways. Humble also doesn’t recommend prophylactically treating for intestinal parasites at all; that can be done during observation if seen.

If I had found this when I started I would have been like heck no to QT . Check out Humble’s website for all of his current stuff.

My only adaptation to the above is to treat for flukes with Prazi dosed to the tank upfront, and then start dealing with ich and copper. This is because I have yet to see ich on an arrival but have had flukes wipe out fish pretty quickly in copper. Only delays copper by 1-2 weeks. One day I might just try both at the same time as it’s generally considered safe with good oxygenation.

I am more concerned about the orange fish just lying on the bottom than the blackfish giving it a nudge. Unfortunately every fish I’ve had over the years just lying on the bottom ended up dying, so let’s hope that doesn’t happen. But, if either does die get them into freshwater before the funeral to get a good look at them and check for flukes! Easy to forget.

 

[zyrzyxen]

I’m an avid follower of Humble Fish and QT everything that goes into the tank. Where on earth did you get this?! It’s so complicated with so many different medications and mixing meds with food! I’m just wondering if it’s someone’s own adaptation (3/4 down it refers to Humble fish in the 3rd person). As Jay said it double doses metro 2 different ways. Humble also doesn’t recommend prophylactically treating for intestinal parasites at all; that can be done during observation if seen.

If I had found this when I started I would have been like heck no to QT . Check out Humble’s website for all of his current stuff.

My only adaptation to the above is to treat for flukes with Prazi dosed to the tank upfront, and then start dealing with ich and copper. This is because I have yet to see ich on an arrival but have had flukes wipe out fish pretty quickly in copper. Only delays copper by 1-2 weeks. One day I might just try both at the same time as it’s generally considered safe with good oxygenation.

I am more concerned about the orange fish just lying on the bottom than the blackfish giving it a nudge. Unfortunately every fish I’ve had over the years just lying on the bottom ended up dying, so let’s hope that doesn’t happen. But, if either does die get them into freshwater before the funeral to get a good look at them and check for flukes! Easy to forget.

They’ve been in copper treatment the last 30 days. Should I perform a freshwater dip and then pray treat all?

Also I followed the following:

Post in thread 'Quarantine'
https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/quarantine.2/post-11645

 

[ariellemermaid]

They’ve been in copper treatment the last 30 days. Should I perform a freshwater dip and then pray treat all?

Also I followed the following:

Post in thread 'Quarantine'
https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/quarantine.2/post-11645

Interesting, he didn’t exactly endorse that but also didn’t challenge it. It’s just funny because earlier in the thread like two or three people just kept making it more and more and more complicated. This is what humble actually said a few posts in:

If using just 1 QT here is what I would do:

1. Treat for 30 days in copper: Copper treatment
2. After the 30 days are up, perform large water changes or use Cuprisorb / Polyfilter to remove all the copper from the water.
3. Once the copper is all out begin a 2 week countdown to observe the fish to be sure nothing slipped thru the cracks.
4. During the 2 week observation period treat with prazi in order to deworm: Praziquantel

That’s basically what I’ve done just in reverse order now.

I’ve never loved doing freshwater dips, it feels stressful to me, but experts say they’re fine and safe. It would diagnose any flukes. On the flip side, if you’re going to water change and treat with prazi anyway, one could ask what’s the point other than certainty?

They’ve done their time in copper though. Whichever way you go, make sure the large water change water and/or FW dip water is temperature matched. Same with salinity.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Interesting, he didn’t exactly endorse that but also didn’t challenge it. It’s just funny because earlier in the thread like two or three people just kept making it more and more and more complicated. This is what humble actually said a few posts in:

That’s basically what I’ve done just in reverse order now.

I’ve never loved doing freshwater dips, it feels stressful to me, but experts say they’re fine and safe. It would diagnose any flukes. On the flip side, if you’re going to water change and treat with prazi anyway, one could ask what’s the point other than certainty?

They’ve done their time in copper though. Whichever way you go, make sure the large water change water and/or FW dip water is temperature matched. Same with salinity.

That's essentially the same quarantine process I have been advocating for here. It is adapted from the one I used in public aquariums.

Agreed, FW dips are over-used and of little benefit except as a diagnostic tool, or to buy a little time before a full treatment is begun (but you need a microscope to see most species of flukes and any protozoans).

Current Quarantine Protocol

2023 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed quarantine process can effectively eliminate these parasites before...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Jay Hemdal]

They’ve been in copper treatment the last 30 days. Should I perform a freshwater dip and then pray treat all?

Also I followed the following:

Post in thread 'Quarantine'
https://humble.fish/community/index.php?threads/quarantine.2/post-11645

Circling back to this. In looking at the new videos - is the fish still feeding well? If so, then this issue is likely an underinflated swim bladder. Tank raised clownfish sometimes get this either through genetic or developmental issues. The only odd thing in this case is the sudden onset. Most "belly sliders" develop the problem gradually over time.

 

[zyrzyxen]

Circling back to this. In looking at the new videos - is the fish still feeding well? If so, then this issue is likely an underinflated swim bladder. Tank raised clownfish sometimes get this either through genetic or developmental issues. The only odd thing in this case is the sudden onset. Most "belly sliders" develop the problem gradually over time.

I have actually noticed since I’ve brought the orange storm home it generally gravitating towards the sand bottom. Even as I would observe it in the beginning I would always see it laying but others have attributed it possibly to just clowns being “weird”. That’ was until I had other suspicions of disease and transferred into a QT.

So my understanding not really much I can do besides monitor then for the next couple weeks until I place all my fishes into my dt?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have actually noticed since I’ve brought the orange storm home it generally gravitating towards the sand bottom. Even as I would observe it in the beginning I would always see it laying but others have attributed it possibly to just clowns being “weird”. That’ was until I had other suspicions of disease and transferred into a QT.

So my understanding not really much I can do besides monitor then for the next couple weeks until I place all my fishes into my dt?

Is the clown still eating well though?

 

[zyrzyxen]

Is the clown still eating well though?

Yes, would swim to grab food at every feed.

 

[zyrzyxen]

Update: Orange clown no longer feeding. I guess I spoke too soon. Not sure what the proper course of action is now. It just stays in the same spot either laying or swimming just staying in the same corner.