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The phenomenon known as Ionic attraction, or was that repulsion?LOL, I actually am an expert on this as I was a master electrician in Manhattan for 50 years and the company that invented GFCIs sent me to school for them. But for me, I just added 2 electric eels to my tank and that confuses the circuit breaker into thinking it is a GFCI which caused the thing to trip any time I go near the tank or walk by it in my Speedo.
Yes, the Swedish 30mA trip setting is a luxury we don't have. In North America (UL943A) personnel protection is set to <6mA or at the "let go" threshold. It's a tough standard that causes a lot of nuisance tripping and hence the debate on when you can get by without them.I do not know how the US form of GFCI works but here in Sweden it trips regardless of which path the current takes to the ground because the ground is the same for both the ground probe and your feet or grounded wall sockets. Here they also trips if a child come in contact with the phase of a wall socket even if the socket is not grounded. Swedish GFCI for personal protection trips at 30 mA
Is the 6mA for domestic/residential or for only high risk medical/commercial?Yes, the Swedish 30mA trip setting is a luxury we don't have. In North America (UL943A) personnel protection is set to <6mA or at the "let go" threshold. It's a tough standard that causes a lot of nuisance tripping and hence the debate on when you can get by without them.
I’m sorry if I make you repeat (reading 32 pages would take hours), but can you explain in very simple terms why is having a GFCi outlet and a probe dangerous to humans ?As another expert or “electrical guru” (35+ years in electrical field and 15 specializing in sophisticated GFCI’s collaborating with Bender Inc.), I completely agree with BeanAnimal’s assessment of the amount of bad (dangerous) information in this thread. He also gave great information that should be considered when determining what’s best for you.
To go a step further regarding safety of using a grounding probe at all -even with a GFCI. This debate comes up often in side panel discussions at NFPA and standard agreement panels discussing confined areas. Most of us believe the grounding probe in a small reachable space is much more dangerous to someone than not having one at all. So to this, I would like someone to show me data on “stray electricity” (God, I hate this term) and the damage to fish because in my opinion, having a grounding probe (even with a GFCI) is not safer for humans.
I’m sorry if I make you repeat (reading 32 pages would take hours), but can you explain in very simple terms why is having a GFCi outlet and a probe dangerous to humans ?
Thank you
In fresh water - a grounded probe is out of questions. If you get fields in freshwater - the current will go through the body of the fish because the conductivity is higher than the surrounding water - electrofishing. In saltwater - the water have much higher conductivity than the body - the current gooses outside the body - no harm to the fish.the real debate then comes down to what/if there is benefit (ignoring HUMAN safety) to the animals as it relates to current flow (be it induced or leaked) and drained by the probe. That is not a debate that I wish to partake in.
This is for residential and general public per the NEC. And there are very few exceptions. Marinas, Mines and some construction industrial considerations. Hospitals are < 6mA with the exception of operating rooms where it is mostly isolated power transformers that use line isolation monitors.Is the 6mA for domestic/residential or for only high risk medical/commercial?
At least that is the theory that I have read- I am not sure my scopas tank would appreciate a current probe shoved up his rear for proof of theory!In fresh water - a grounded probe is out of questions. If you get fields in freshwater - the current will go through the body of the fish because the conductivity is higher than the surrounding water - electrofishing. In saltwater - the water have much higher conductivity than the body - the current gooses outside the body - no harm to the fish.
Sincerely Lasse
I think BeanAnimal covered the question perfectly. A simplified way to look at it is the "the bird on a wire" scenario. Very hard for the bird to ground itself when so far away. When a grounded source (opportunity to ground) is placed in near proximity then it becomes more dangerous for you. The good news is that a GFCI will protect you if you have a grounding probe. That's why it's especially imperative to have a GFCI with a grounding probe.I’m sorry if I make you repeat (reading 32 pages would take hours), but can you explain in very simple terms why is having a GFCi outlet and a probe dangerous to humans ?
Thank you
Voltage saves lives.
Do it right!
That would be a PITA, esp given the lower domestic line voltage in general use compared to here.This is for residential and general public per the NEC. And there are very few exceptions. Marinas, Mines and some construction industrial considerations. Hospitals are < 6mA with the exception of operating rooms where it is mostly isolated power transformers that use line isolation monitors.
Don’t know why we are torturing a goldfish. But it does remind me while filming “The Abyss”, we filmed a scene of a rat dunked and held in a breathable fluid to prove a story point about this fluid that humans could breathe allowing diving without compression/equalizing concerns. I remember thinking, I guess we are just going to kill a couple rats. Not like I hadn’t seen animals killed before on set… These were days before PITA. Anyway, it turns out the stuff was real! I seriously watch these rats (I think 5 takes so 5 different rats?) breathe this stuff from about 5 feet away! It was fascinating watching them breathe in and out. All of them were fine… Crazy to see!
- Ugh! Sorry for the ramble. This clearly has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Voltage saves lives.
Do it right!
Agreed. This threshold level is unnecessary. But I’m sure these firemen will never backtrack a standard that’s in place and working.That would be a PITA, esp given the lower domestic line voltage in general use compared to here.