️ Electricity Issue ! GFCI tripping when turning off geae ️

[BeanAnimal]

Measuring voltage like that is meaningless unless you measure current as well, especially with an inexpensive digital meter.

Have you tried a different GFCI device, preferably a real GFCI receptacle and not an extension cord apapter?

Leaky MOVs shunting during the switch spike? Maybe, but bypassing that would be easy enough to do for a check. Does you power strip have MOVs in it?

 

[SomeHappyFish]

Measuring voltage like that is meaningless unless you measure current as well, especially with an inexpensive digital meter.

Have you tried a different GFCI device, preferably a real GFCI receptacle and not an extension cord apapter?

Leaky MOVs shunting during the switch spike? Maybe, but bypassing that would be easy enough to do for a check. Does you power strip have MOVs in it?

inexpensive? Its a 100 automotive meter otc 3505 ...

I tried the kitchen GFCI receptacle.

It's a power conditionner powerstrip so my guess is yes, but I would need to open it to confirm. How do I bypass these?

 

[FoD]

inexpensive? Its a 100 automotive meter otc 3505 ...

I tried the kitchen GFCI receptacle.

It's a power conditionner powerstrip so my guess is yes, but I would need to open it to confirm. How do I bypass these?

Yes, inexpensive.

Double Clamp Meter | Fluke 381 True-RMS Clamp Meter

For added safety & convenience, the Fluke 381 Double Clamp Meter + detachable display allows you to take readings remotely and in tough-to-reach spots.

www.fluke.com

Replace or build a GFCI circuit and try again. Ground the tank using a titanium probe.

 

[Reefering1]

My budget meter for diagnosing cars, oscilloscope for higher resolution.

Digital Multimeter

Electric measure .Advanced measure for sensor and actuators .Conventional ignition test .Temperature measure .USB connected .Display Count: 4,000 .True RMS .Performs diode and continuity tests .Pulse Width: 0.1 to 1999.9ms .Autoranging .Relative .Min/Max/Average .Adjustable trigger mode .Analog...

www.mactools.com

Yes, inexpensive.

Double Clamp Meter | Fluke 381 True-RMS Clamp Meter

For added safety & convenience, the Fluke 381 Double Clamp Meter + detachable display allows you to take readings remotely and in tough-to-reach spots.

www.fluke.com

Replace or build a GFCI circuit and try again. Ground the tank using a titanium probe.

Some of those flukes are downright expensive, I was amazed the first time I saw a 2300$ multimeter..

 

[SomeHappyFish]

Yes, inexpensive.

Double Clamp Meter | Fluke 381 True-RMS Clamp Meter

For added safety & convenience, the Fluke 381 Double Clamp Meter + detachable display allows you to take readings remotely and in tough-to-reach spots.

www.fluke.com

Replace or build a GFCI circuit and try again. Ground the tank using a titanium probe.

One is a multimeter and the other one is a clamp meter they are for different use.

Clamp Meters vs Digital Multimeters

A digital multimeter is essentially a voltage-measuring tool with some current abilities. A clamp meter is basically a current-measuring tool with some voltage abilities. They are distinctly different instruments, each with its own advantages.

www.fluke.com

Anyway, I will be grouding the tank to see if it's induced voltage or not.

 

[Paul B]

What you have is definitely induced voltage. 30, 40 or even 80 volts would be induced voltage.

"Any" voltage leakage would be at least 108 volts and nothing less. (In the US. Europe would be about double that)

There is a lot of speculation as to if induced voltage harms anything and you will get many theories. There is nothing you can do about it unless you use all DC equipment which would not induce anything.

As Bean said, as you turn off things it creates a small spark or at least variation in your GFCI which it detects as some type of fault. Changing the GFCI may help. Installing a capacitor on the line will also but that is to technical for this forum.

(electrician 50 years)

 

[SomeHappyFish]

What you have is definitely induced voltage. 30, 40 or even 80 volts would be induced voltage.

"Any" voltage leakage would be at least 108 volts and nothing less. (In the US. Europe would be about double that)

There is a lot of speculation as to if induced voltage harms anything and you will get many theories. There is nothing you can do about it unless you use all DC equipment which would not induce anything.

As Bean said, as you turn off things it creates a small spark or at least variation in your GFCI which it detects as some type of fault. Changing the GFCI may help. Installing a capacitor on the line will also but that is to technical for this forum.

(electrician 50 years)

Thanks! I can consider this solved.

 

[SomeHappyFish]

What you have is definitely induced voltage. 30, 40 or even 80 volts would be induced voltage.

"Any" voltage leakage would be at least 108 volts and nothing less. (In the US. Europe would be about double that)

There is a lot of speculation as to if induced voltage harms anything and you will get many theories. There is nothing you can do about it unless you use all DC equipment which would not induce anything.

As Bean said, as you turn off things it creates a small spark or at least variation in your GFCI which it detects as some type of fault. Changing the GFCI may help. Installing a capacitor on the line will also but that is to technical for this forum.

(electrician 50 years)

Any good power strip with switches that won't do this ? How the hell do people shut off pumps on gfci otherwise

 

[nereefpat]

What you have is definitely induced voltage. 30, 40 or even 80 volts would be induced voltage.

"Any" voltage leakage would be at least 108 volts and nothing less. (In the US. Europe would be about double that)

I disagree with this.

A faulty piece of a equipment putting electricity into the water doesn't always show line voltage numbers (108, 110, 120, or whatever). You can get shocked or trip a GFCI on less voltage than that. I've replaced pumps and heaters and been shocked by readings well under 108 volts.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I disagree with this.

A faulty piece of a equipment putting electricity into the water doesn't always show line voltage numbers (108, 110, 120, or whatever). You can get shocked or trip a GFCI on less voltage than that. I've replaced pumps and heaters and been shocked by readings well under 108 volts.

Hi -

Can you please explain the voltage drop using Ohm's Law?

- Seawater has a resistance of ~0.2 Ohms per meter.
- There is an exposed wire or pump winding in the water.
- large tank 2 meters long.
- probe on ground.
- probe in water 2 meters from the faulted wire or pump.
- circuit is capable of 15A before the breaker trips.

Feel free to add a second calculation showing what the resistance of the faulted device or its degraded insulation would have to be to drop 120vac to 30vac through 2m of seawater.

 

[nereefpat]

Hi -

Can you please explain the voltage drop using Ohm's Law?

Nope, probably not. The extent of my knowledge there would be just the definitions of amps, watts, volts, ohms. I only had 1 semester of E & M, and I've forgotten almost all of it. I'm not a physicist or an electrical engineer, and won't pretend to be one on the internet.

I'm just giving my experience. I've been shocked in aquariums where the voltage read by a meter was well under what is between the hot and neutral of the recep feeding the tank. I've been shocked when voltage in a tank reads between 20-60v between the tank and ground. I've found the culprit (usually a pump), and unplugging it drops the voltage reading between the tank and ground, and you no longer get shocked. I've also had bad pumps trip a GFCI while the water read less than 108v (20-60v range). It doesn't take many volts or watts to meet that threshold where the GFCI trips.

A GFCI tripping should not be ignored. That's my point. I would keeping playing around with equipment (devices, power strips, GFCI in the kitchen) until I figured it out. Grounding the tank will make the elimination process quicker.

 

[alton]

Until you ground this tank this thread will be like Dory and just keep spinning. Like Bean Animal said build your own plug strip with two separate GFCI receptacles, keeping your return pump on its own GFCI.

 

[Paul B]

Any good power strip with switches that won't do this ? How the hell do people shut off pumps on gfci otherwise

I have no idea. Some GFCIs are slightly different. I guess it depends on which 5 year old girl in China built the thing

I disagree with this.

A faulty piece of a equipment putting electricity into the water doesn't always show line voltage numbers (108, 110, 120, or whatever). You can get shocked or trip a GFCI on less voltage than that. I've replaced pumps and heaters and been shocked by readings well under 108 volts.

I disagree with your disagreement. Line voltage going into a tank will always be the same voltage as line voltage unless you are measuring it a very long distance from the source, like miles.

I also didn't say you couldn't get shocked on less voltage than 120 volts or what voltage will trip a GFCI. You can get shocked on 12 volts but the thread was about why the GFCI trips on line voltage in his tank, not what will shock you. When they invented GFCIs they sent me to school for the things.
(Master Electrician 50 years)---- But I am not the God of electricity so I can always be wrong. I thought I was wrong once, but I was incorrect

 

[SomeHappyFish]

Until you ground this tank this thread will be like Dory and just keep spinning. Like Bean Animal said build your own plug strip with two separate GFCI receptacles, keeping your return pump on its own GFCI.

Alright good news, bought and installed a grounding probe and my tank is now reading .004-.005 volts.

Will this prevent the gfci from tripping when switching off or on ? I want to avoid testing it haha

 

[BeanAnimal]

You continue to read voltage from the water without understanding what you are reading. Induced voltage is not the same as fault current.

You have not tested another GFCI.
You have not tested a different power strip.

You have added a ground probe on the assumption that it would fix the issue, it will not.

If there is actual faulting equipment then the GFCI would trip when the probe was added or if the switch causes the fault, will trip the GFCI anyway. A GFCI looks for missing current not returned on the neutral. The purpose of the ground probe IS TO TRIP the GFCI in the event of a fault in the tank.

You have now also added a current path for the induced voltage to follow. That in itself can create other issues. Where you had no current flow, you do now.

So no, it will not solve your initial issue.

 

[SomeHappyFish]

You continue to read voltage from the water without understanding what you are reading. Induced voltage is not the same as fault current.

You are 100% right, I have no f@cking clue, this is why I made this post.

You have not tested another GFCI.
You have not tested a different power strip.

After reading your post I decided to get up and just do it.

I took out the skimmer and plugged it in the kitchen GFCI and tried plugging/unplugging multiple times, the GFCI did not tripped.

Took the GFCI Adapter and took a cheap power strip I own and redid the test, the GFCI did not tripped.

Also tried the kitchen GFCI and cheap power strip, the GFCI did not tripped.

Therefor the issue is the switch of the power strip currently installed? It only trips with the skimmer or reactor, nothing else. The reactor's pump has been removed and I connected it to my manifold which was long overdue on my end. Skimmer will be plugged on a smart plug on my other power strip which is not on a GFCI until I figure this out.

 

[Paul B]

Will this prevent the gfci from tripping when switching off or on ? I want to avoid testing it haha

As Bean said, probably not.

 

[SomeHappyFish]

As Bean said, probably not.

The power strip seems to be the issue, see my latest post.

 

[nereefpat]

Alright good news, bought and installed a grounding probe and my tank is now reading .004-.005 volts.

It sounds like you are getting the issue figured out, probably the strip itself.

But, just to explain what ground probes do:
The water in the tank is now tied to the ground in the outlet you plugged it into, which is eventually tied to the ground in the panel. The potential energy between any two grounds in the house will be zero. That's why your meter reads zero now.

If your tank had faulty line voltage equipment in it, and the tank water is grounded, and your tank's equipment is connected to a correctly working GFCI, the GFCI would immediately trip. That's the advantage of a ground probe. The outlet trips immediately, rather than waiting for you to stick your hand in the tank while standing on the floor.

For anyone reading this later on, my opinion is that it is not safe to use a ground probe without a GFCI.