2 Containers for Classic Balling?

[Japtastic]

Morning all. Trying to avoid using 3 dosing containers if I can due to space. I'm moving from ATI essential Pro (which covers everything in two containers) to classic balling. Can I combine Bicarb of soda / Carbonate of soda + Tropic Marin Part C in one bottle? Then another bottle for Calcium+Magnesium? I believe this is what ATI does, hence the two bottles.

 

[WallyTime7]

If combining dosing containers and elements was that easy most companies would offer that option.
There’s a chemical balance i would not cut corners just for space…

 

[Japtastic]

If combining dosing containers and elements was that easy most companies would offer that option.
There’s a chemical balance i would not cut corners just for space…

Thanks, could you back that up with some science? ATI manage it so just want to be sure I can or can't. If you're 100% please tell me how. Thanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

No, you cannot combine the Balling parts.

Two part recipes (such as ESV) are designed using different chemicals to attain the same basic final ionic composition in the water.
Balling Part C contains a lot of sulfate and a lot of magnesium.

It cannot be combined with the alk part or else magnesium hydroxide/carbonate will preciptiate

it cannot be combined with the calcium part or else calcium sulfate will precipitate.

A two part will put sodium sulfate in the alk part and magnesium chloride in the calcium part.

 

[Japtastic]

Excellent, thanks for the info. That explains how some companies combine in to two bottles such as my current ATI Pro.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy reefing.

 

[Japtastic]

Been going around in circles the last few days with chemistry and maths! I remembered that my issue with space was the reason I went with ATI in the first place. I currently have 2x2Litre ATI Pro bottles that cover everything. I can squeeze another 2-litre bottle in with a bit of a push so I can move to a DIY ALK+CAL and Tropic Marin Part C method.

I think the limiting factor and managing to squeeze enough into 2 litres to cover my usage while away for 7-10 days was Alk. I need to dose around 1.5-2dkh per day in 1300 litres. I was only looking at Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Bi-Carbonate. Then I found your recipe for using Sodium Hydroxide and believe I could use this and is possibly what ATI use to squeeze in lots of ALK to those 2-litre bottles?

Sodium Hydroxide Pellets 97.0 – 100.5% ACS

Please note: For Collection orders this product requires photographic identification.

apcpure.com

The issue is I can't work out the dosing amounts. I want to base my dosing off the least soluble chemical to get as long as possible between refilling the 2-litre bottles. I'd like to create the solutions with the same strength so I can dose the same amount out of each bottle so adjustment of ALK/everything is easy and without having to re-calculate everything.

Is there any chance you could guide me in the right direction to work this all out? Thanks.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Been going around in circles the last few days with chemistry and maths! I remembered that my issue with space was the reason I went with ATI in the first place. I currently have 2x2Litre ATI Pro bottles that cover everything. I can squeeze another 2-litre bottle in with a bit of a push so I can move to a DIY ALK+CAL and Tropic Marin Part C method.

I think the limiting factor and managing to squeeze enough into 2 litres to cover my usage while away for 7-10 days was Alk. I need to dose around 1.5-2dkh per day in 1300 litres. I was only looking at Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Bi-Carbonate. Then I found your recipe for using Sodium Hydroxide and believe I could use this and is possibly what ATI use to squeeze in lots of ALK to those 2-litre bottles?

Sodium Hydroxide Pellets 97.0 – 100.5% ACS

Please note: For Collection orders this product requires photographic identification.

apcpure.com

The issue is I can't work out the dosing amounts. I want to base my dosing off the least soluble chemical to get as long as possible between refilling the 2-litre bottles. I'd like to create the solutions with the same strength so I can dose the same amount out of each bottle so adjustment of ALK/everything is easy and without having to re-calculate everything.

Is there any chance you could guide me in the right direction to work this all out? Thanks.

I'm not clear on exactly what you are trying to do with the DIY two part and ATI.

Two parts using bicarboante and/or carboante are solubility limited by the alk part. Hydroxide versions are not, but I'd only make it as concentrated as you really need, as you may get more and more local precipitation at the point of alk addition to the water if it is more and more concentrated.

 

[Japtastic]

I’m getting rid of ATI completely and swapping to DIY ALK, Cal and then using Tropic Marin Part C.

Just looking for some help calculating how much I can squeeze in to each 2 litre bottle and dose the same amount from each.

1300 Litre volume using say 2dkh a day.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I’m getting rid of ATI completely and swapping to DIY ALK, Cal and then using Tropic Marin Part C.

Just looking for some help calculating how much I can squeeze in to each 2 litre bottle and dose the same amount from each.

1300 Litre volume using say 2dkh a day.

OK, you can certainly match the ATI Pro potency.

ATI lists two types on their calculator (diluted and undiluted).

Essentials Pro Dosing - ATI North America

Calculate your dosage of Essentials Pro We have dosing calculators that will help make dosing easier – whether this is your first time dosing ATI Essentials Pro or you need to adjust your current dose.

www.atinorthamerica.com

To boost alk by 1 dKH in 100 gallons takes:

`132.5 ml diluted
26.5 undiluted

My DIY two part containing sodium hydroxide (or baked baking soda= sodium carbonate)) requires 71.4 mL to match that alk rise.

Thus, my DIY is about 1.86 times as potent as the diluted ATI Pro and 0.37 times as potent as the undiluted.

If you wanted the hydroxide solution to match the undiluted ATI potency, then you would use 71.4/26.5 = 2.7 times as much sodium hydroxide as my standard sodium hydroxide recipe.

 

[Japtastic]

Ok thanks, while I take that all in. I saw that these were the amount per litre to dose equally for a DIY Alk+Cal+Part C. Does that sound correct? I'm trying to figure out the equivalent for Sodium Hydroxide.

Part A - 76g calcium chloride per litre of RO.
Part B - 84g of sodium bicarbonate per litre of RO. (This differs slightly from the recipe that Tropic Marin give, as they have mixed some sodium carbonate in with the bicarbonate in part B.)
Part C - 24g of Tropic Marin Sodium Chloride Free salt per litre of RO.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I suspect this thread may be helpful to you in your endeavor.

Standardizing ABC dosing to mesh RHF, TM and BRS’s recipes *with concentrations*

I’ve been using randy’s recipe for many years and added Tropic marin’s part C 3 years ago. I also began toggling the alk additive between bicarbonate, soda ash and lye to finely tune and maintain a high; stable pH. Tropic marin’s recipe is very diluted- I would have to mix, store and dose over...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok thanks, while I take that all in. I saw that these were the amount per litre to dose equally for a DIY Alk+Cal+Part C. Does that sound correct? I'm trying to figure out the equivalent for Sodium Hydroxide.

Part A - 76g calcium chloride per litre of RO.
Part B - 84g of sodium bicarbonate per litre of RO. (This differs slightly from the recipe that Tropic Marin give, as they have mixed some sodium carbonate in with the bicarbonate in part B.)
Part C - 24g of Tropic Marin Sodium Chloride Free salt per litre of RO.

The sodium hydroxide recipe is detailed here:

Second New DIY Two Part Recipe with Higher pH Boost

In a previous thread, I posted a true two part DIY recipe: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/new-diy-two-part-recipes-with-higher-ph-boost.344500/ But some folks may want to just swap the new ingredient into my 2/3 part recipe (as used by BRS, for example). Here's the original recipe link...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Japtastic]

Thanks both, will have a look through all of this.

In the meantime I've worked out that if I used Sodium Carbonate instead of Bicarbonate I could get around 5 days from 2-litre bottles.

I hope these calculations are correct. Will be double-checking my working out later.

Calcium Chloride = 228g / litre
Sodium Carbonate = 138g / litre
Tropic Marin Part C = 72g / litre

To be dosed (1:1:1) and for my 1300 litres @ 2dkh consumption, this means 406ml per day of each solution.

I'll figure out the same later for Sodium Hydroxide and post my figures.

 

[Japtastic]

Ok, I believe these are the correct figures for Sodium Hydroxide x4 strength.

Calcium Chloride= 296g / Litre
Sodium Hydroxide = 139g / Litre
Tropic Marin = 96g / Litre

To be dosed (1:1:1) and for my 1300 litres @ 2dkh consumption, this means 305ml per day of each solution.

I may increase this to 5x or 6x strength if Tropic Marin Part C will dissolve at that amount.

Now the question is where to source the Sodium Hydroxide.

Could someone look over these data sheets to check the products? One of these is £115 per 25KG and the other is £240!

https://www.apcpure.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/GPC8035-X_1347445597.pdf

https://www.mon-droguiste.com/media/catalog/product/file/ft/FT_Soude_Caustique_CPP.pdf