5 Week Observational QT, confused

[David_CO]

@fishmedic

I've had a purple tang in an observational QT for 5 weeks. It is the only fish in there. It always been shy but eats like a pig. As far as I knew everything was fine, from the lighting around the tank I couldnt see ANYTHING on the fish and I checked frequently.

I pulled the fish today to examine further and I was considering throwing it in the DT. However, when viewed at certain angles it looks like it has velvet. the dots look too small to me to be ich and i dont know how it could be alive with velvet after 5 weeks.....

Only other thing to note is the tank has had a minor bacterial bloom.

I have most medications on hand other than CP.

 

[vetteguy53081]

@fishmedic

I've had a purple tang in an observational QT for 5 weeks. It is the only fish in there. It always been shy but eats like a pig. As far as I knew everything was fine, from the lighting around the tank I couldnt see ANYTHING on the fish and I checked frequently.

I pulled the fish today to examine further and I was considering throwing it in the DT. However, when viewed at certain angles it looks like it has velvet. the dots look too small to me to be ich and i dont know how it could be alive with velvet after 5 weeks.....

Only other thing to note is the tank has had a minor bacterial bloom.

I have most medications on hand other than CP.

Yes appears to be velvet. When you say observational, I assume you did not use any meds?
Velvet spots on the fish that are much finer than the spots seen in Ich making it harder to catch until in cases too late to treat.
Some behaviors associated with a fish with velvet are :
- Scratching body against hard objects
- Fish is lethargic
- Loss of appetite and weight loss
- Rapid, labored breathing
- Fins clamped against the body
- rapid breathing and mucus around the gills

Fish with velvet will typically stay at the surface of the water, or remain in a position where a steady flow of water is present in the aquarium. As the disease progresses outwards from the gills, the cysts then become visible on the fins and body. Although these cysts may appear as tiny white dots the size of a grain of salt, like the first sign of Saltwater Ich or White Spot Disease, what sets Oodinium apart from other types of ich is that at this point the fish have the appearance of being coated with what looks like a whitish or tan to golden colored, velvet-like film, thus the name Velvet Disease.
Remove fish from main tank and give them a FW dip or bath and then place them into a QT with vigorous aeration provided. Treat the fish in the QT with a copper-based medication. Although many over-the-counter remedies contain the general name as ich or ick treatments, carefully read the box to be sure it is specifically designed to target Oodinium.

 

[David_CO]

correct. my plan was to observe then treat as necessary. How can the fish be alive after 5 weeks with velvet, especially considering how widespread it is on the fishes body?

I feel like most cases on here with velvet the fish doesnt look nearly as bad in terms of white dot coverage and succumb in like 3 days max. not act fine for 5 weeks.

It basically hangs out in its cave 80% of the time when I'm nearby but when i monitor from my camera it roams a bit, definitely not hanging in the high flow areas. Eats like an absolute pig. If i put 3 cubes of frozen in a day it would eat it all.

Only other thing I'll mention is if you zoom in on the head area of the bottom pic you can see alot of the white is very asymmetrical and different sizes. I was under the impression velvet is very well defined circles.

Maybe I'm delusional or in denial lol

Its back in a QT tank now.

 

[David_CO]

I pulled the fish back out primarily to get another look but I also did a 30 min 150 ppm hydrogen peroxide dip. breathing was fast but after ~20 mins or so I was counting 60-80 gill movements per min.

I'm really confused why the white spots are different sizes or shapes. Everything i read about velvet is symmetrical circles.

I'm holding off on copper power until I get more feedback. for now the fish is back in the QT and I threw in a 25w UV for the 20G QT. At the very least will clean up the bacterial bloom by the morning.

 

[David_CO]

I just went down to check on the fish and as the sun is coming up it’s ZOOMING back and forth end to end of its QT tank.

I really see no evidence that this is velvet besides the white on the fishes body. None of the other symptoms are there

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I pulled the fish back out primarily to get another look but I also did a 30 min 150 ppm hydrogen peroxide dip. breathing was fast but after ~20 mins or so I was counting 60-80 gill movements per min.

I'm really confused why the white spots are different sizes or shapes. Everything i read about velvet is symmetrical circles.

I'm holding off on copper power until I get more feedback. for now the fish is back in the QT and I threw in a 25w UV for the 20G QT. At the very least will clean up the bacterial bloom by the morning.

The first and most important symptom of Amyloodinium (velvet) is rapid breathing. Secondary would be hovering in water flow. Spots may or may not ever show up.

I would say this is either a bacterial issue or mucus (accounting for the different shapes and sizes) or "stale ich" where ich has lingered so long that mucus reactions show up.

Observational quarantine is very risky. Fish can and do harbor parasites that can "break" months later. Flukes and Cryptocaryon are the two most common issues in that regard.

Jay

 

[David_CO]

Hi Jay,

thank you for the response. Would it be worth it to run antibiotics before I give in and run copper? If so which one should I use? I have a large variety of fish meds on hand.

Nothing from the fishes behavior shows me it’s on deaths door.

there is a bit of a bacterial bloom in the tank. I suspect it will be gone later today do to the oversized UV I threw in last night.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,

thank you for the response. Would it be worth it to run antibiotics before I give in and run copper? If so which one should I use? I have a large variety of fish meds on hand.

Nothing from the fishes behavior shows me it’s on deaths door.

there is a bit of a bacterial bloom in the tank. I suspect it will be gone later today do to the oversized UV I threw in last night.

That's a tough call. One of the primary causes of excess mucus in tangs is prior copper treatment.

I'd like to rule out the "stale ich" idea - if you didn't see spots over the past week, generally increasing in number, then that isn't it.

Based on the lesions on the head, I would lean towards this being a bacterial issue - what antibiotics do you have? Anything that works on gram negative would be useful - Neomycin, Kanamycin maybe. Furan 2 is good.

Jay

 

[MnFish1]

Agree with @Jay Hemdal and @vetteguy53081. I might add - that not every fish with velvet 'dies'. Especially if for some reason they have partial immunity, etc. That I think would answer the question 'how could it live with velvet for 5 days'. However - a fish with that many lesions (from whatever cause) - is at high risk for a bacterial infection anyway - so an antibiotic trial is not unreasonable.

 

[David_CO]

Doxycycline (api fin and body), erythromycin, minocyline, metro and Sulfathiazole.

this fish has never been in copper.

 

[MnFish1]

Doxycycline (api fin and body), erythromycin, minocyline, metro and Sulfathiazole.

this fish has never been in copper.

Of those - the best would be the doxycycline - dosed per instructions. Kanamycin or neomycin is usually the 'first-line' - with tetracyclines 'second-line'.

 

[Spare time]

This is why observational QT is useless. I HIGHLY recommend not going this path in the future, especially having worked at an lfs and seen how common disease is with fish in this hobby.

 

[David_CO]

Of those - the best would be the doxycycline - dosed per instructions. Kanamycin or neomycin is usually the 'first-line' - with tetracyclines 'second-line'.

I’ll go pick up some kanaplex or neoplex

 

[MnFish1]

This is why observational QT is useless. I HIGHLY recommend not going this path in the future, especially having worked at an lfs and seen how common disease is with fish in this hobby.

The truth of the matter is (at least according to polls on this site) - about 40 percent of people do a medicated quarantine - and many of those are not doing it per any protocol. I doubt that 50% of people lose all of their fish. SO - its not IMHO - useless.

1. Observation can be helpful to allow the fish to be fed, not be stressed out by others, etc - and make it healthier before adding to the tank.
2. If illness is seen - they are already in a separate tank - which treatment can be applied to - without putting other fish at risks.
3. Observation alone probably decreases the likelihood of illness by quite a bit (but no where near 100%).

Note - I'm not recommending against QT - and I'm not advocating for observation QT. I just disagree that observation alone is 'useless'.

 

[jmichaelh7]

I’ll go pick up some kanaplex or neoplex

Why not start copper

 

[MnFish1]

Why not start copper

I believe because @Jay Hemdal felt a bacterial cause was more likely - and that copper can worsen lesions like this (assuming its not velvet). I might have a bottle on hand (my personal opinion)

 

[Spare time]

The truth of the matter is (at least according to polls on this site) - about 40 percent of people do a medicated quarantine - and many of those are not doing it per any protocol. I doubt that 50% of people lose all of their fish. SO - its not IMHO - useless.

1. Observation can be helpful to allow the fish to be fed, not be stressed out by others, etc - and make it healthier before adding to the tank.
2. If illness is seen - they are already in a separate tank - which treatment can be applied to - without putting other fish at risks.
3. Observation alone probably decreases the likelihood of illness by quite a bit (but no where near 100%).

Note - I'm not recommending against QT - and I'm not advocating for observation QT. I just disagree that observation alone is 'useless'.

I guess I should rephrase it as nearly useless imo. Yes you can spot something before it enters the tank, but why not just already have the fish in the medicine? If you keep a fish in an observational qt for several weeks, and then have to do an additional several weeks because something popped up, that is pain. And, if someone does an observational QT, and they don't notice something til it enters the tank, that is even worse. I agree its better than no qt at all, but it's very close to being useless for disease. I find the pros of medicated QT are far greater than an observational QT.

 

[MnFish1]

I guess I should rephrase it as nearly useless. Yes you can spot something before it enters the tank, but why not just already have the fish in the medicine? If you keep a fish in an observational qt for several weeks, and then have to do an additional several weeks because something popped up, that is pain. And, if someone does an observational QT, and they don't notice something til it enters the tank, that is even worse. I agree its better than no qt at all, but it's very close to being useless for disease.

1. Many people on this site and others believe that prophylactic medication causes more problems long-term (not going to debate whether thats right or wrong) - just trying to answer 'why' some people use observation.
2. Though its 'common wisdom' that every fish sold has a disease, its not true.
3. Observational QT is not 'for disease' - its to monitor the fish for any signs of disease. I actually do this with every fish I buy - I let them stay at the LFS for 3-4 weeks - in a tank with no medication. If they are 'ok' - I buy them. At this particular store they also have a medication QT protocol - and no fish is sold without having gone through this - however - it is not as 'strong' as some of the recommended protocols.

Again - not trying to debate you. Observation alone is not going to 'treat' a disease. But - it may prevent the exposure of the fish to potentially toxic chemicals - and IMHO is FAR less risky than just dumping the fish from the LFS into the tank.

 

[David_CO]

My plan was to condition and monitor then treat as required.

I’m new to this but from my perspective starting copper doesn’t make much sense. If it was velvet the fish should be on deaths door. The pig just ate half a cube of LRS and was begging for more and is about 1/3 through the nori I put in.

previously I was under the impression it wasn’t ich. It doesn’t look like any ich pics I can reference. Per Jays info maybe it is ich and this guy has some decent immunity this far.

I have copper power and copper safe on hand. I probably have 15+ different meds I’ve picked up. I’m not opposed to medicating at all. As I started reading about this hobby from all the great resources escpecially here my impression was a lot of fish don’t do great with prophylactic copper. I would prefer to condition and observe rather then throwing a poison in the water that just so happens to be more toxic to the bad stuff then the fish.

total time in quarantine doesn’t matter to me at all. I just want a healthy alive fish in my DT tank, especially on the more pricey ones.

 

[David_CO]

I went to a LFS today and spoke with the owner who is widely regarded as the best in the region. When I showed him the pic he immediately said its weird but he thinks its long ich......

2 experts say its ich, i'm throwing copper power in. I would expect a significant visual improvement in a week, I'll provide an update then.