^This.
I would add carbon dosing kills corals but anyone who looks at ROhwer's book and video would understand that.
Ammonia as route cause to all nuisance in the hobby.
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^This.
I would add carbon dosing kills corals but anyone who looks at ROhwer's book and video would understand that.
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sixty_reefer
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That is true both in the sea and in our system if implemented incorrectly, the difference is that resolving those issues is fairly more easily done in a small volume of water in comparison to the sea.
In FW I saw plants out compete both single cell and macro algae and assumed that would be the case with macro algae in SW but I did have a very large volume of plants and perhaps size of Fuge might be the limiting factor. I say this because I did one experiment where plants were a quarter of what I later used by volume and single cell green water was prevalent.
Curious what those with nothing but a refugium as nutrient expert experience. Where the refugium is large enough to take the entire sump for example.
This thread is very informative. The videos @Timfish link show just how important balance is and the cascading affect that can happen when the environment falls out of it. One problem I see is not knowing when you've gone too far (dosing) as there's no way to tell how much bacteria is present etc. The amount of fish, etc present already producing comes into play, I imagine. Is this a from day one approach giving the bacteria a head start ahead of introduced algae? What changes if corals are present? Otherwise would the algae outcompete the bacteria? Is the idea a steady dose of ammonia so that it is always present when needed? Sorry if you already answered these; this turned into a long thread (some of it over my head) and I forgot more than I remember lol. I'm also thinking waaayy to hard on a Sunday 
I'm also curious about the refugium macro algae competition; anyone?
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sixty_reefer
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Randy wrote a good paper on ammonia, one of the points is how algae can be a sink for ammonia, definitely worth a read
Also, as mentioned earlier, in a new tank, would these phases simply burn themselves out after some time and in cases where dinos are ongoing for a year or more is there something else that is missing from that system that is causing that imbalance because surely that is not the result for everyone.
I have it pinned
How can you resolve issues caused by carbon dosing when you can't test for what's being produced, how it's being processed, or how it's moderating the various microbiomes or identify acute and/or chronic responses?
Cryptic sponges may process DOC, aka carbon dosing, 1000X faster than bacterioplankton, so how is it being determined it's actually bacterioplankton that's removing it when it's dosed? Some of the research shows coral DOC and this was pointed out by Feldman, et al, in his papers on TOC (1) (2), can cause issues with their own microbiomes so what are the synergistec effects of dosing DOC along with coral DOC? Coral immune systems, of which individual microbiome plays a significant role, vary at the genotype level, so how do we determine which corals are going to be more resilliant? As a group have reef aquarists "probably" have developed strains tolerant of carbon dosing but how has it affected their long term vaibility?
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I think it is stretching things to say that carbon dosing by dosing vinegar is killing corals. There’s no evidence that I have ever seen to suggest that it does.
Blanket statements about DOC effects no more relate to acetate in particular than a claim that all drugs are addictive and kill people are to a question about aspirin.
HomebroodExotics
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Carbon dosing kills corals now? I gotta tell my corals to die I guess.
Best way to resolve issues in your aquarium is to use your eyes first.
Ever tried growing multiple species of phytoplankton together? In conditions that are certainly not nutrient deficient? Outcompeted or murdered?
There is evidence that particular sugars produced by green algae’s can in fact be bad for corals, particularly related to the types of bacteria that proliferate with that type of carbon source. I’ve certainly not come across negative information regarding carbon sources such as Vodka, Sugar, Vinegar however.
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I’m not familiar with this papers, I’ve read other paper from Feldman, from a quick read Feldman is not saying that all carbon dosing is the reason for coral degradation, he mentioned the carbohydrates produced by zooxanthellae potentially being a source of DOC for bad bacteria like vibrio (not something we observe often in the hobby). He also mentions a hypothesis on how carbon dosing can kill in aquaria although reasons are unknown apparently.
To my knowledge carbon dosing don’t kill coral, stripping a system from nutrients and limiting the zooxanthellae for nutrients will fairly easily kill a coral. Can we blame carbon dosing for it or the lack of information from folks doing this?
If we can eradicate nuisance algae by limiting nutrients why shouldn’t we be able to kill zooxanthellae in the process? It’s just a algae that most corals depend on to live.
how many folks strip systems from nutrients wile killing large amounts of green algae with algaecides unaware that the decomposition of algae will release carbohydrates that will allow bacteria to grow and divide and in the process depleting nutrients, often killing corals.
Who’s to blame, the algaecide, the carbohydrates or folks that decide to do something without knowing the outcome of doing so?
edit:
as for solution in small volume of water often correcting the curb resolves most issues.
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Ammonia will always be available, and with proper water chemistry maintained (water changes or dosing) it will be unlikely that the issue at hand will resolve itself as it will never become limited by other macro and micro nutrients.
The only way to eradicate this nuisance will include always the introduction of a new competitive organism for the same nutrients (example live phytoplankton), algaecide or antibiotics.
Yes i have - and in a limited space - its always the on that grow in a faster path that win.
So let us throw more wood into the fire - thais may explain the observations that NH3/NH4 complex will favour the microalgae and NO3 the macro.
Let us say that they both can use any of the nitrogen sources mentioned here (NH3/NH4 and NO3) but the mechanism for using NO3 is less developed/cost more energy among many of the microalgae, hence - even if microalgae during perfect conditions for both grow faster - if NO3 is the dominated N source - this poorer ability/higher energy cost causes the microalgae to have a poorer growth rate and is therefore pushed aside. Everyone involved in ecology knows that during similar conditions and demands - the species that grows faster will win the battle for resources.
About DOC killing corals - my experiences with DOC in situ (in an ecosystem) indicate that there is no clear direct link between corals death and DOC dosing (in very small dosing) but a lot of indirect links that it could be the case during an overdose in just that ecosystem (fast bacteria growth, low pH, low oxygen and so on) I sometimes use DOC dosing " the normal way" - it means a direct dose in the aquarium. In these cases I prefer carbohydrates because it is mostly that form all natural DOC´s have. Ethanol, vinegar and other DOC is seldom present in a natural water but carbohydrates could be present. I I want to use DOC in a denitrifikation filter - I prefer ethanol because in denitrification DOC is used for more than just growth (as a electron donnor)
Sincerely Lasse
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In a way this could explain why in so many cases of dinoflagellates, it’s so complicated to increase nutrient with just increased feeding, more feeding will just become more ammonia and if most of the ammonia is being used by micro algae nitrification can’t happen resulting in a system having a prolonged period of starvation for other organisms, supporting the idea that using nitrates could be a more efficient way to raise nutrients in this conditions in comparison to others that could have urea (that will degrade into co2 and ammonia) or over feeding that will also increase ammonia
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Just to clarify, the urea statement seems to be ignoring the fact that the idea that urea can be metabolized to CO2 and ammonia and water is also true of nitrate (plus a little alkalinity) and most organics that contain N, such as an amino acid.
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Below is a copy of a article I’ve recently posted, in it I’ve used the laws of nature were all organisms will have a higher demand for carbon, medium for nitrogen and a small amount of phosphates used as a guideline to write how all nutrients are interconnected in a fairly complex way and how we can interpret limitations in our systems by simply track the residual nitrates and phosphates concentration without the need for complex testing. The increase and decrease of the same can in a way tell us how carbohydrates are affecting the overall nitrogen and phosphorus, I say carbohydrates as they are the most natural form in our systems although dosing acetic acid and ethanol will have the same impact.This thread is very informative. The videos @Timfish link show just how important balance is and the cascading affect that can happen when the environment falls out of it. One problem I see is not knowing when you've gone too far (dosing) as there's no way to tell how much bacteria is present etc. The amount of fish, etc present already producing comes into play, I imagine. Is this a from day one approach giving the bacteria a head start ahead of introduced algae? What changes if corals are present? Otherwise would the algae outcompete the bacteria? Is the idea a steady dose of ammonia so that it is always present when needed? Sorry if you already answered these; this turned into a long thread (some of it over my head) and I forgot more than I remember lol. I'm also thinking waaayy to hard on a Sunday
many folks often post perfect ICP results and can’t understand why they’re coral is dying often on those threads you will never see from the poster a residual phosphates or residual nitrates as they are often ignored to trouble shooting issues not fully understanding that zooxanthellae can be limited by nitrogen and phosphorus causing the same to perish. Zooxanthellae is a micro algae and as many other microalgas they need ammonia to thrive.
understanding nutrient limitations
1. Introduction
2. Brief description on the difference between Availability and residual nutrients.
3.Identify nutrient limitations under different filtration methods.
3.1. Heterotrophic bacteria as dominant species effect on nutrients and residual.
3.2. Heterotrophic bacteria and autotrophic split dominance effects on nutrient and residual.
4. Influence of other filtration methods and additives on Nutrients
4.1. Filter sock, poly filter and sponges
4.2. Roller mats
4.3. Macro algae’s
4.4. Carbon Dosing
4.5. Phosphates absorbing Medias
4.6. Phosphates artificial dosing
4.7. Nitrates dosing
4.8. Nitrogen dosing
4.9. Protein skimmer
4.10. Water changes
5. Conclusion
1. Introduction
The following article is a update and a more detailed method to understand some of the information that was posted in a previous thread named “the third Nutrient” where I wrote about the importance of the Nutrient C and a few ways to interpret limitations in Reef Aquaria, I have now realised that although the theory is correct it can’t be applied to all systems. This is due to exist two main types of biological filtration in our hobby, one that is mainly done by heterotrophic bacteria, this will be the most common system in the hobby in my opinion, the second type of biological filtration is the split autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria dominance this will be more common to folks that still have large amounts of live rock or media in a dark Refugium normally in the sump or in the back of a AIO system this kind of filtration promotes nitrifying and denitrifying autotroph to colonise part of the system and may affect the principal nutrient limitation theory.
One of the goals in this article is to aid other members into understanding how to manage nutrient limitations in aquaria.
2. Brief description on the difference between Availability and residual nutrients.
It is important in my opinion to understand the difference between availability of nutrients and residual nutrients to fully understand the information shared through this thread and for a better perception of how nutrients work.
The availability of nutrients it’s the process from the start of decomposition of organic biomass into organic carbon, nitrogen and phosphorus the nutrients will then be slowly release into the water column and be utilised by many different organisms that habitat our systems including coral and macro algae’s.
The most important organism at controlling nutrients will be bacteria, they are the sole responsible organisms to limit Carbon, Nitrogen and depending on each individual biological filtration Phosphorus.
The above nutrients can’t be tested with home grade test kits at present time unfortunately. What we can test is for residual nitrates and phosphates this will be the nutrients that a system is not using hence why they can increase or decrease during nutritional changes to a particular system.
The charts in the pictures below demonstrates the changes in C N P availability in comparison to the expected changes in residual nutrients during carbon dosing. The chart purpose is to illustrate the difference between availability and residual nutrients, on the first picture chart we can observe how a stable tank would look like wend stable and on the second picture chart we can observe that the increase of the availability of organic carbon would made the residual of nitrates and phosphates decrease.
Picture 1
picture 2
3. Identify nutrient limitations under different filtration methods.
3.1. Heterotrophic bacteria as dominant species effect on nutrients and residual.
How I understand the limitations in C N P Availability of nutrients in a system that is mainly biologically filtered by heterotrophic bacteria.
P limits N and C
That may cause N and C to be in abundance
N limits C
That may cause C to be in abundance
How do I understand abundance in C N P availability of nutrients, abundance means if one of the nutrients is in excess
C abundance
May cause N and P be limited
C and N abundance
May cause P to be limited
Knowing the basics of abundance and limitations we may be able to interpret the limitations and abundance of those nutrients using our residual parameters to have a vague idea of what’s happening at the C N P availability of nutrients level.
Residual of phosphates in connection to P
Phosphates decreasing
It may mean P is starting to be less available
Phosphates at zero
It may Mean that P may not be available in the aquarium
Phosphates increasing
It may Mean P is starting to build up in our aquariums
Residual of Nitrates in connection to N
Nitrates decreasing
It may mean N is starting to be less available
Nitrates at Zero
It may mean that N is not available in the aquarium
Nitrates increasing
It may mean N is starting to build up in our aquariums
3.2. Heterotrophic bacteria and autotrophic split dominance effects on nutrient and residual.
How I understand the limitations in C N P Availability of nutrients in a system that is biologically filtered by heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria.
Residual nitrates going up
It may mean that there’s not enough media supporting denitrification in the sump/display and the display could be limited by the nutrient C
Residual Nitrates going down
It may mean that there is to much media in the sump/display supporting denitrification or a abundance of the nutrient C in the display.
Residual nitrates stable
The balance is just right between display and sump
Residual phosphates going up
It may mean that most of the nutrient N is being processed by Nitrifying autotrophs in the sump or the display is limited By the nutrient N or C.
Residual phosphates going down
It may mean that there is a abundance of the nutrient N and C in the display.
Residual phosphates stable
The balance is just right between display and sump
4. Influence of other filtration methods and additives on Nutrients
4.1. Filter sock, poly filter and sponges
The above filtration can influence the availability of nutrients and residual nutrients, the way they will influence is due to the contact time with the water column the longer it takes in between changes or cleaning the more nutrients will be available to the overall system.
If a system is used to only have them clean or replaced once a week a change in husbandry like moving from weekly to daily could influence the overhaul stability of the supply of available nutrients to a particular system.
4.2. Roller mats
Rollers are definitely a impressive way to automate mechanical filtration the only disadvantage or advantage in my opinion is how effective they are at removing uneaten food from the water column before they start to break down and be able to release nutrients.
If a particular system is observed to start depleting nutrient sometimes by reducing the speed of the roller you should be able to increase the overall availability of nutrients or increase the speed to lower nutrients.
A change from a filter sock to a roller mat could be one of this situations and I would personally recommend that after the change the roller is set to the lower speed for a few weeks to let the organism in the tank adapt to the new availability of nutrients and slowly increase the speed for the previous reasons.
4.3. Macro algae’s
Macro algae’s are a good way to reduce the residual of Nitrates and Phosphates the only thing that makes them a more complex nutrient export is they’re demand in trace elements and sometimes this can become a issue for continuous growth they may also compete with coral for some of the trace elements.
4.4. Carbon Dosing
Carbon dosing in the form of pellets or the many liquid forms it’s a good way to reduce the the build up of the residual nutrients N and P
4.5. Phosphates absorbing Medias
They ideal to adjust the build up of Residual phosphates without making any large changes to the overall balance of the system
4.6. phosphates artificial dosing
It is a efficient way to increase a target nutrient in a controlled fashion.
4.7. Nitrates dosing
It is a efficient way to increase a Target Residual nutrient in a controlled fashion.
4.8. Nitrogen dosing
Nitrogen dosing it is a effective way to increase the availability of N in a system it will also be a good source of nutrients to aid the growth of bacteria population if desired.
4.9. Protein skimmer
They are a effective way to remove excess organics from the water column before they can break down into available nutrients.
4.10. Water changes
In my opinion water changes are not a effective way to control nutrients, they are efficient in emergencies and in other areas of the hobby like replenish trace elements, regarding nutrient control I believe that they are the last resource to look for.
5. Conclusion
The above information is a easier way to interpret what’s happening in a system at the nutrient level, once identified the type of filtration that a system has and the potential dominant bacteria it can becomes easier to understand what is affecting the nutrition on that individual system for a ease of response from the end user to make more informative adjustments if required, I’ve made a effort to keep everything as simple as possible so that folks can understand the methods regardless of the level of experience.
It seems pretty clear to me dosing any labile DOC, aka carbon dosing, kills corals. Coral DOC is largely refractory so is not generally available for microbial processes in coral holobionts. It's been well documented excess labile DOC is used by heterotrophic bacteria to metabolize refractory DOC to grow and as a consequence reducing oxygen in the coral holobiont and in extremes suffocating corals. Seems to me if you're going to claim acetic acid is safe to use with corals you need ot show it's not used by heterotrophic microbial processes to utilize the refractory DOC.
Sounds good. But how are you monitoring shift in coral microbiomes? Especially when diseases can be well established long befor there's changes in apperance?
As far as carbon dosing just now killing corals a lot of the research was done in the mid 2000s. It's just been ignored for awhile.
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