Are these zoas light starved?

[Jake_the_reefer]

I have these gobstopper zoas and after a few months of growth I notice their stalks are rather long. Is this a sign of too little light or is this normal as zoas grow? They've also been closed for a couple weeks due to dino irritating it. Heres before and after. (They are mostly closed right now cause it's close to bed time haha)

 

[A. grandis]

Most people think intensity and/or spectrum alone are the culprit for light deficiency.
I'm tired of holding my thoughts in regards to light in the zoa forum...

If a light source offers "good intensity" (which is largely relative among all hobbyists today!) but the rest of the qualities, including spectrum, UV or IR, are weak, too strong, or inappropriate, the animals dependent of light will suffer and therefore show slow growth rate, weird colony structure and different color than it should be. Problem today is that there isn't any basis to judge all those qualities. The comparison should be done accordingly to what they look and how they behave in the ocean. The hobby has been diluted in respect to that reference. People keep their animals under blue lights and careless or disregard the facts in the natural environment. Great part of it comes from those who sell corals and LEDs today. Some say the corals will be found under "blue light" in the ocean. Not true! Bluer is ok, not totally blue!
All aspects of light are important to be reproduced in our artificial systems and distribution, reflection, and the balance of UV rays, IR, spectrum and intensity are super important to be considered. LEDs are very poor in offering all those qualities in a nut shell to resemble the light in the ocean.
I'm writing this here so people can understand why there are so many tanks showing such poor looking zoas and corals.
I'm sorry for venting!
My intention is to help you guys to understand that light is more than 60% of the success maintaining your reef systems and with LEDs as a primary source of light it will be basically impossible to bit any T5 and/or halide system. Those who changed are so happy and will never come back to LEDs. There is a huge advantage!!!
LEDs are like flash lights or Christmas lights compared to a HOT5s or specially a halide system.
Just my US$0.2.

 

[erk]

I've found a couple reasons for the zoas and palys in my tank to extend or retract. In terms of light, zoas and palys need relatively little to survive. I have noticed that in intense lighting they tend to hug the rockwork more closely, but not always. In lower flow, they tend to extend more. I've also noticed that those in relatively low intensity lighting, sub 100 PAR, will hug the rockwork if given high flow. I have had zoas/plays survive in very low PAR, around 50 all the way up to 200. They adapt quite well to a large range. Large, rapid changes upwards in lighting will kill them though. I almost melted my Sunny Ds by moving them from a low flow/low light zone to high flow/very high light zone. They were extended but very healthy prior to moving. It eventually stopped melting and a few polyps survived. None of these polyps really retracted though. I don't notice the same issue going from high to low light. More just a loss of vibrancy.

On the otherhand, i have a large colony of eagle eye zoas and a portion is shaded almost completely. They still don't extend off the rockwork at all and continue to grow in this shaded region. Even have good color.

So what should you do about your zoas? Just leave them alone tbh. Put them where you want them to grow and let them grow. They will figure it out.

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

Most people think intensity and/or spectrum alone are the culprit for light deficiency.
I'm tired of holding my thoughts in regards to light in the zoa forum...

If a light source offers "good intensity" (which is largely relative among all hobbyists today!) but the rest of the qualities, including spectrum, UV or IR, are weak, too strong, or inappropriate, the animals dependent of light will suffer and therefore show slow growth rate, weird colony structure and different color than it should be. Problem today is that there isn't any basis to judge all those qualities. The comparison should be done accordingly to what they look and how they behave in the ocean. The hobby has been diluted in respect to that reference. People keep their animals under blue lights and careless or disregard the facts in the natural environment. Great part of it comes from those who sell corals and LEDs today. Some say the corals will be found under "blue light" in the ocean. Not true! Bluer is ok, not totally blue!
All aspects of light are important to be reproduced in our artificial systems and distribution, reflection, and the balance of UV rays, IR, spectrum and intensity are super important to be considered. LEDs are very poor in offering all those qualities in a nut shell to resemble the light in the ocean.
I'm writing this here so people can understand why there are so many tanks showing such poor looking zoas and corals.
I'm sorry for venting!
My intention is to help you guys to understand that light is more than 60% of the success maintaining your reef systems and with LEDs as a primary source of light it will be basically impossible to bit any T5 and/or halide system. Those who changed are so happy and will never come back to LEDs. There is a huge advantage!!!
LEDs are like flash lights or Christmas lights compared to a HOT5s or specially a halide system.
Just my US$0.2.

The zoas are all really nicely colored, the gobstopper are redder than when I got them and my pink constellations were almost white but now a vibrant pink. So they are coloring nicely. I was just somewhat concerned because the polyp extension is almost 4 times as much as they use to be when I first got them. I started with 1 polyp of gobstopper 3 months ago. Now I'm looking at 10. The pink constellations are only 4 heads.
In regards to the blasting them with blues, this is just a late night shot, the normal lighting is very white during the day I dont like just blue all day.
I attached my lighting schedule ai prime, 20g tank, light is 9 inches from surface
Zoas are 3 inches from the bottom of the tank on the left third.
I've been thinking t5 supplementation at some point!

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

I've found a couple reasons for the zoas and palys in my tank to extend or retract. In terms of light, zoas and palys need relatively little to survive. I have noticed that in intense lighting they tend to hug the rockwork more closely, but not always. In lower flow, they tend to extend more. I've also noticed that those in relatively low intensity lighting, sub 100 PAR, will hug the rockwork if given high flow. I have had zoas/plays survive in very low PAR, around 50 all the way up to 200. They adapt quite well to a large range. Large, rapid changes upwards in lighting will kill them though. I almost melted my Sunny Ds by moving them from a low flow/low light zone to high flow/very high light zone. They were extended but very healthy prior to moving. It eventually stopped melting and a few polyps survived. None of these polyps really retracted though. I don't notice the same issue going from high to low light. More just a loss of vibrancy.

On the otherhand, i have a large colony of eagle eye zoas and a portion is shaded almost completely. They still don't extend off the rockwork at all and continue to grow in this shaded region. Even have good color.

So what should you do about your zoas? Just leave them alone tbh. Put them where you want them to grow and let them grow. They will figure it out.

Thank you! This area of my tank is low-med light and low med flow. They were in almost no flow on my frag rack and suffered during my dino fight because the dino loved to settle on them.

 

[erk]

Thank you! This area of my tank is low-med light and low med flow. They were in almost no flow on my frag rack and suffered during my dino fight because the dino loved to settle on them.

You could try increasing light or flow or both if you want to encourage them to retract to the rockwork. But if you do, give them a week or two to adapt. I noticed it takes about a week between adjustments to see a change.

 

[Jake_the_reefer]

You could try increasing light or flow or both if you want to encourage them to retract to the rockwork. But if you do, give them a week or two to adapt. I noticed it takes about a week between adjustments to see a change.

I'm not necessarily looking for them to shrink down. I have just heard from a buddy that a ton of extension is caused by the lack of flow/lighting and can be problematic, if this is just normal behavior and I'm not at risk of losing my collection I'm happy!

 

[A. grandis]

The zoas are all really nicely colored, the gobstopper are redder than when I got them and my pink constellations were almost white but now a vibrant pink. So they are coloring nicely. I was just somewhat concerned because the polyp extension is almost 4 times as much as they use to be when I first got them. I started with 1 polyp of gobstopper 3 months ago. Now I'm looking at 10. The pink constellations are only 4 heads.
In regards to the blasting them with blues, this is just a late night shot, the normal lighting is very white during the day I dont like just blue all day.
I attached my lighting schedule ai prime, 20g tank, light is 9 inches from surface
Zoas are 3 inches from the bottom of the tank on the left third.
I've been thinking t5 supplementation at some point!

Zoanthids, like most corals, are highly adaptive to light and will survive under very low light conditions. They will change their colors accordingly and even reproduce. That is called normally by "morphing" (colors) in the hobby.
Some corals, like Montipora spp. for example, are also highly adaptive to lower light conditions too.
Their colony structure (corals and zoas) are compromised when exposed to under optimal conditions (only when we compare to what we find in the ocean).
Of course that water motion, organics and water parameters will play with all that. Again, 60%+ is light IMO.
Unfortunately everything is very relative in this hobby today.
I'm glad at least you give them some "white" light.
Wish you the best! Good luck.

 

[pjdiddy]

I always thought zoas and palys stretching is caused by lighting issue. Added T5s on my Hydras and they are still the same. Added more flows and they eventually went back to normal.

 

[A. grandis]

I always thought zoas and palys stretching is caused by lighting issue. Added T5s on my Hydras and they are still the same. Added more flows and they eventually went back to normal.

Yes, it's a combination of both to most species. Flow will help a lot in many different issues keeping all zoanthids healthy in our tanks. Gotta find the sweet flow though. Some areas in nature has very low flow and they are still very close to the rocks due to the strong intensity of light. Those polyps have the most amazing colors!!!
Some species of zoanthids will have long stalks in nature or under high intensity metal halides. That is the way those species are, naturally.
You can keep zoas under LEDs only and have them growing very close to the rocks with a "good flow" rate too. I was able to do that with many species when I tested LEDs.
The fact that they don't look like they are starving for light because they don't have long stalks while under LEDs still doesn't mean the light they're receiving is optimal (see post # 2). Starving for light isn't directly related to long stalks. Yes, I know that normally the term is used for low light intensity situations.
Zoanthids and corals can starve for light because of a lack of QUALITY, very different to what they used to get in the ocean. But they are highly adaptive to our tanks and will still survive. That's why it's all so relative. People don't know if they are surviving or if they are thriving anymore.
Metal halides with T5 supplementation is the best to resemble the natural environment they come from IMHO!
Most zoanthids in the hobby come originally from extremely shallow waters where a combination of high water flow and high light intensity is the rule!
To illustrate everything that I've wrote:




It is kinda rare to find them in deeper waters:

There are many "gurus" in the hobby spreading the myths... they act like doctors making their YouTube videos and just because they sell zoas and corals doesn't mean they really know what they're doing to keep them in optimal conditions. What they do works because of the high adaptive capability of those polyps they keep. That's it!

But this is only my personal opinion and the way I see because everything became so relative nowadays.
I just wanted to make sure and register my opinion in regards to light to keep zoanthids in general.
I know that everyone will see it differently.
Enjoy the videos.

 

[sde1500]

I'm not necessarily looking for them to shrink down. I have just heard from a buddy that a ton of extension is caused by the lack of flow/lighting and can be problematic, if this is just normal behavior and I'm not at risk of losing my collection I'm happy!

There are zoas that lay flat on the rock, and ones that don't. I have a colony of gobstoppers in an area that gets plenty of light, and they all have long stalks. I have a frag that I moved to the top of the tank on my frag rack. End result, slightly short stalk. Its just a characteristic of the zoa. There are certainly ones that should be flat and when you see them stretching its a sign they need more light. But I'd say these aren't one of them.

 

[sde1500]

I just wanted to make sure and register my opinion in regards to light to keep zoanthids in general

Isn't that what you do all the time?

 

[Chewbacca]

Most people think intensity and/or spectrum alone are the culprit for light deficiency.
I'm tired of holding my thoughts in regards to light in the zoa forum...

If a light source offers "good intensity" (which is largely relative among all hobbyists today!) but the rest of the qualities, including spectrum, UV or IR, are weak, too strong, or inappropriate, the animals dependent of light will suffer and therefore show slow growth rate, weird colony structure and different color than it should be. Problem today is that there isn't any basis to judge all those qualities. The comparison should be done accordingly to what they look and how they behave in the ocean. The hobby has been diluted in respect to that reference. People keep their animals under blue lights and careless or disregard the facts in the natural environment. Great part of it comes from those who sell corals and LEDs today. Some say the corals will be found under "blue light" in the ocean. Not true! Bluer is ok, not totally blue!
All aspects of light are important to be reproduced in our artificial systems and distribution, reflection, and the balance of UV rays, IR, spectrum and intensity are super important to be considered. LEDs are very poor in offering all those qualities in a nut shell to resemble the light in the ocean.
I'm writing this here so people can understand why there are so many tanks showing such poor looking zoas and corals.
I'm sorry for venting!
My intention is to help you guys to understand that light is more than 60% of the success maintaining your reef systems and with LEDs as a primary source of light it will be basically impossible to bit any T5 and/or halide system. Those who changed are so happy and will never come back to LEDs. There is a huge advantage!!!
LEDs are like flash lights or Christmas lights compared to a HOT5s or specially a halide system.
Just my US$0.2.

BROVO MY FRIEND BROVO. VERY WELL SAID

 

[A. grandis]

Isn't that what you do all the time?

Is that all you've got from my messages? Wow!

 

[sde1500]

Is that all you've got from my messages? Wow!

You spout the same unfounded nonsense in every post about light. What more is there to get? You like halides and make claims with no data behind them any time light is mentioned.

 

[A. grandis]

You spout the same unfounded nonsense in every post about light. What more is there to get? You like halides and make claims with no data behind them any time light is mentioned.

Oh, that. Ok, so?
All I say is true in real life.

 

[sde1500]

Oh, that. Ok, so?
All I say is true in real life.

10 minutes where he talked about measuring light and not once said one source was better than another. What are you even getting at here?

 

[Chris L]

I cant say in terms of light starved but i know what Zoa's do in my tank with too much light. They start shrinking and will dissapear. For example i originally had some new little guys toward the top of my rockwork, did ok for a week or so but then started to shrink. I moved them down toward very bottom of the tank in overhangs only getting a touch of my lighting and they have grown and added at least one polyp every week.

I should note that most coral can acclimate to higher lighting. It is just a matter of what they are "used" to.

 

[A. grandis]

10 minutes where he talked about measuring light and not once said one source was better than another. What are you even getting at here?

So what do you think? LEDs are better than halides for growth and color? Did you try both to be able to compare?

 

[sde1500]

So what do you think? LEDs are better than halides for growth and color? Did you try both to be able to compare?

That would be purely anecdotal and worthless for proofs sake. I also never said one was superior to the other, only that you continually repeat that you believe halide is better. Not a very strong case to make when you have to resort to demanding proof to the contrary from others when you yourself can’t seem to provide evidence that backs your own case up.