Beware of Vinegar - The Pump Killer

[lordraptor1]

one more reason not to buy vortech, i have an lod koralia K4 and several Jebao pumps all still working like champs an all of them have been soaked in vinegar in the past, now these pumps are used strictly for salt mixing duty having been replaced by 4 jebao slw-30 and a jebao dcp-10000 which i i am confident will outlast my varios4 skimmer pump which has already been through 1 rear impeller bearing. higher price does NOT mean better.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

My Danner/Supreme Return Pump, wouldn’t always restart. So I talked to a Danner Rep. said the Vinegar caused my problem, said to use Danner’s Pump cleaner, which he said is Citric Acid. Bought some from the Hardware Store, it was in the Home Canning Section, bought it in bulk on the internet. “Enough to Last me three lifetimes LOL.” Lucky a new Rotor put me back in business. BTW When I did Commercial AC Service, we used Citric Acid on the Super Changers.

 

[redfishbluefish]

one more reason not to buy vortech, i have an lod koralia K4 and several Jebao pumps all still working like champs an all of them have been soaked in vinegar in the past, now these pumps are used strictly for salt mixing duty having been replaced by 4 jebao slw-30 and a jebao dcp-10000 which i i am confident will outlast my varios4 skimmer pump which has already been through 1 rear impeller bearing. higher price does NOT mean better.

Don't be so quick to jump on Vortech. It's the type of plastic that determines if acetic acid will penetrate, and I'm willing to bet that other manufacturers use similar plastic. Here's my Koralia story.... I started with four K4's in my tank. When the Evolution series came out, I pre-ordered four new pumps....I think Evolution 1200's. Within a year all were trash. Two of them I couldn't ever get the impeller out of the body....swollen up so bad they wouldn't come out. The other two, you could see the now cracked and swollen magnets on the impellers. Now back to the K series. I ended up using these in my mixing barrel. About six months ago, one of them kept falling off the Brute. Didn't pay much attention, but after happening a couple times, I pulled the pump out and found the magnetic base had swollen and cracked. SO yes, even Koralia's are subject to acetic acid penetration. Hard to get the angle so you could clearly see the swelling, but here it is:

 

[eLReef]

Using straight vinegar and leaving it over night is what caused the issue. If you dilute vinegar with rodi water and leave it for a few hours you won’t ever have to worry about what you experienced.. been doing this for years with all kinds of pumps including mp40’s and I have never experienced what you have.

 

[JimWelsh]

I admit I'm too lazy to read through all 11 pages of posts, and so please forgive me if this was already asked and answered. The rationale for not using acetic acid is that it is a weak acid, and doesn't dissociate completely, but wouldn't that also be true for citric acid, another weak acid? Why wouldn't citric acid cause the same problem as acetic acid?

 

[Potatohead]

I admit I'm too lazy to read through all 11 pages of posts, and so please forgive me if this was already asked and answered. The rationale for not using acetic acid is that it is a weak acid, and doesn't dissociate completely, but wouldn't that also be true for citric acid, another weak acid? Why wouldn't citric acid cause the same problem as acetic acid?

Hi Jim, I would have thought you or Randy would know the answer to that question before any of us... lol

I wish I could find it, but Tunze actually published a youtube video about this years ago. I'll keep searching for it. But they basically said don't use vinegar because it causes the plastic to swell and citric acid does not.

 

[reefrun]

Wish I found this earlier! I’ve lost a few pumps after routine diluted vinegar siaks

 

[Potatohead]

Wish I found this earlier! I’ve lost a few pumps after routine diluted vinegar siaks

I killed at least three wet sides due to this ;Facepalm . Lesson learned.

 

[SteveMM62Reef]

Different Acids will Attack different things. We used an Acid Cleaner on Aluminium AC Coils with Copper Tubing, that were super dirty. “Trashed.” It did very minimal damage to the coils, but in that dilution it would etch a glass window, if it got splashed or spray drifted on the window. BTW, Only a few Technicians were allowed to use this cleaner, it could cause severe burns.

 

[redfishbluefish]

I admit I'm too lazy to read through all 11 pages of posts, and so please forgive me if this was already asked and answered. The rationale for not using acetic acid is that it is a weak acid, and doesn't dissociate completely, but wouldn't that also be true for citric acid, another weak acid? Why wouldn't citric acid cause the same problem as acetic acid?

Jim, you’ve asked an excellent question. I shall answer using my expertise in conjecture, which was used in concocting the OP. No research or experimentation was done in coming up with this possible explanation of acetic acid being problematic with some plastics. It’s based on possibility, opinion and anecdotal evidence.

Again, utilizing my expertise, acetic acid is a relatively small acid:

While citric acid is considerably larger:

Even though it too does not dissociate completely, it might just be that physical size is what makes citric acid a better choice in cleaning plastic encapsulated metals. It’s just too large to penetrate the plastic.


Here’s my bottom line…..I’ve used acetic acid in cleaning various pumps, and had to replace a fair number of them because of swelling magnets. Could it have been some other reason?…..Maybe. But since I can only speculate that acetic acid might be a problem, it's just easy to change to citric acid...until such time I notice citric acid washed pumps are also showing signs of swollen magnets. So far, so good.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I admit I'm too lazy to read through all 11 pages of posts, and so please forgive me if this was already asked and answered. The rationale for not using acetic acid is that it is a weak acid, and doesn't dissociate completely, but wouldn't that also be true for citric acid, another weak acid? Why wouldn't citric acid cause the same problem as acetic acid?

I would speculate it is because unprotonated citric acid is too hydrophilic to enter plastic from water.

Log P is a measure of the relative portion of a molecule distributing between water and octanol (which for us may mimic plastic).

Log P for acetic acid is -0.17

log P for citric acid is -1.64

0 means equal parts in both phases, negative values have more in water.

Thus, citric acid is far less likely to enter octanol (our plastic surrogate) than is acetic acid, by a factor of about 30x.

 

[Arabyps]

Confirms what I do. Citric acid. Also use it to clean filter Socks.

 

[Reefahholic]

I have posted bits and piece of my vinegar story over the past three years, and I thought it would be beneficial if one post contained all that I've learn. You'll be surprised! This story will contain three parts; my history with vinegar, the cause and simplified chemistry what's happening; and the solution to cleaning your pumps without fear of swelling magnets.


MY STORY

I've been using MP's for many years, and as a good boy, cleaned the wetsides in vinegar (aka, acetic acid) to make them look good and function correctly. I had a very simple way of doing this by immersing the entire wetside in straight vinegar over night and then rinsing and putting back into service.

If anyone is interested, this small plastic container that perfectly fits an MP40 wetside is a one pint talenti ice cream (gelato) container....an overpriced ice cream my wife enjoys....too many times!

About three and a half years ago I found one of my MP40 wetsides slowly spinning. To be crystal clear, the entire wetside...cage and all, was spinning. When I pulled it out I found the magnet had swelled and was binding to the body of the powerhead, causing the entire thing to spin.

I wasn't a happy camper, but over the next couple months, two more were found with swollen magnets (plastic case either swollen and/or cracked), and now also not functioning.

Now this isn't just an MP thing. In retrospect, I had four Koralia Evolution powerheads before switching over to MP's. All four were dead in the water within a year of purchasing new. Two with obvious swollen magnetic portions of the impeller shaft, and two that I couldn't even get the impellers out of the body of the powerhead because they were swollen and stuck within the body. Note that these powerheads were also regularly cleaned in vinegar.

So I have a confession...."Bless me Father for I have sinned"....my wife didn't know what I paid for all the MP's I have...and now I need to go out and drop another $225 for three wetsides. I wasn't happy!!! Note, if I die, my wife will be selling MP40's for about $20 - $25, half of what I supposedly paid.

To finish this story, I later had three MP10's do the same thing. My wife will be selling these for $15 - $20 a piece. Now I know, with six MP's with new wetsides, you're all waiting for me to die!


WHY IMPLICATE VINEGAR

So I was puzzled why my overpriced MP's crapped out, and about six months after loosing my first MP, I came across a post by @Randy Holmes-Farley in which he posted:

"I think the effect on plastic may be worse with vinegar than muriatic acid but it may depend on the plastic.

Vinegar can be in the form of acetic acid and that neutral molecule can enter plastic. Diluted muriatic acid won't have any neutral acidic molecules in it to enter plastic, so just exposes the outermost leading edge of plastic. So while the muriatic acid after dilution is a much stronger acid, i would not assume it is worse on plastics."


This made perfect sense! To clarify, charged molecules won't penetrate plastic, but neutral small molecules will. I will repeat that saying it differently....ionic molecules will react at the surface while small neutral molecules will potentially penetrate that material.

If we look at acids in aqueous solution, they dissociate into ions, which is commonly shown as:

HA(aq) + H2O(l) ⇌ H3O+(aq) + A−(aq)

where HA is the acid. Note that the left side is "neutral" while the right side of the reaction contains "charged" molecules (ions). Specifically, for acetic acid (vinegar), this dissocation looks like this:

CH3COOH + H20 ⇌ H3O+ + CH3COO-

Now here's the kicker....some acids dissociate easily and readily while others dissociate very poorly. In the case of acetic acid, it dissociates very poorly, with the majority still in the neutral CH3COOH configuration. To repeat what I said above, charged ions do not penetrate, while small neutral molecules can.

So what is happening when you clean your parts in vinegar, is that it being neutral, has the abililty to penetrate the plastic and, if within the plastic is metal, cause it to oxidize (rust), and swell. Now this doesn't happen over night, or by one cleaning, but happens over time....months, maybe years, but it will happen. In addition, the type of plastic could impact how quickly (or slowly) the acid penetrates.

Don't get me wrong, vinegar is still great for cleaning tanks and pure plastic parts, but I'd avoid it with metal parts encased in plastic (impellers and pumps.) If the cages alone need to be cleaned of coraline, I'd still consider cages only to be soaked in vinegar. But plastic encased magnets...NO, NO, NO!


IF I CAN'T USE VINEGAR, WHAT AM I TO DO

So what can you use to clean your powerheads and pumps that won't potentially cause the magnets to rust and swell and ruin your pumps? We need to find acids that dissociate completely and/or are too large to penetrate the plastic.

Well there just happens to be two readily available acids available that are reasonably price, and in my opinion, with one, clean better (faster) than vinegar. These two acids are Muriatic Acid and Citric Acid.

Muriatic acid (dilute hydrochloric acid) is available at HD and pool stores (and I'm sure other places as well.) One note with muriatic acid, it is hydrochloric acid and needs to be handled with care. It will burn you, cause for holes in your cloths, and is dangerous. So wear rubber gloves, eye protection and be careful.

For cleaning tank parts, I'd recommend dilution 1 to 10. Even at this dilution, it will clean pumps and whatever, much faster than vinegar. You'll actually see the calcification fizz off the equipment.

The other acid that is pump safe is citric acid. You can find five pounds on ebay for a reasonable amount of money....a life time supply. Here you want to dilute about 1 cup to a gallon of water. Throw your pumps into this solution and allow to sit over night and you should find a cleaned pump


CONCLUSION

Vinegar, being a neutral acid, will penetrate plastics. If metal is encased in this plastic, it will find it's way and cause that metal to rust and swell. To avoid this, use other acids, such as muriatic acid or citratic acid to clean your pumps...and have them last forever!

I use 2-3 to 10 dilution and the 3 to 10 is aggressive, but I haven’t had any issues yet. Even with Jebao pumps. I’ve had several Mag Drive pumps last for years.

I never liked Vinegar because it’s just too slow for me.

The reaction time is much faster with Muriatic Acid or Citric Acid.

Muriatic Acid reacts the fastest.
Then Citric Acid.
Vinegar would definitely be the slowest.

If you have an old tank you want to clean up that has coralline algae and calcium carbonate deposits all over it. Mix up some Muriatic Acid (2 to 10) and spray the diluted mix on all of the deposits and it will be gone so effortlessly. It will easily cut your cleaning time in half.

 

[Reefahholic]

Muratic acid scares me with an 11 year old reefer.

I use outside and still use vapor filters. I only use in the house if nobody is home. I’ll turn on the vent fan in the back bathroom and keep the bedroom door shut. I also keep the bathroom door shut after I’m done and leave the vent fan on for 30 minutes.

 

[Reefahholic]

Vinegar sells went down.

Vortech and Jebao sales are going up.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Muratic acid scares me with an 11 year old reefer.

Yeah - I’d be hesitant if I were you, too. I would strongly advice using citric acid. Since I’ve switched, my experiences have matched @Reefahholic ’s. Citric acid is safer than muriatic acid but quicker than vinegar (and also smells better!) THe only downside is it’s not as easy to find. I generally order mine from BRS.

I use 2-3 to 10 dilution and the 3 to 10 is aggressive, but I haven’t had any issues yet. Even with Jebao pumps. I’ve had several Mag Drive pumps last for years.

I never liked Vinegar because it’s just too slow for me.

The reaction time is much faster with Muriatic Acid or Citric Acid.

Muriatic Acid reacts the fastest.
Then Citric Acid.
Vinegar would definitely be the slowest.

If you have an old tank you want to clean up that has coralline algae and calcium carbonate deposits all over it. Mix up some Muriatic Acid (2 to 10) and spray the diluted mix on all of the deposits and it will be gone so effortlessly. It will easily cut your cleaning time in half.

After reading this article I switched to citric acid and your assessment matches my experience. I also like that you don’t need to be as concerned with safety and fumes with citric acid as you do with muriatic acid. Up here in MN, doing things outside isn’t a great option for a significant part of the year!

 

[drawman]

Curious what (if any) people are using for their titanium heaters. Going to try to give it and a temp probe a good cleaning.

 

[redfishbluefish]

My heaters have never had calcifications, so I just wipe them off with a scrubby sponge. If you have calcification, either vinegar or citric acid should do it.

 

[Tuffloud1]

I’ve never cleaned my heater. 7 years, never.

 

[Brooke24]

Yeah - I’d be hesitant if I were you, too. I would strongly advice using citric acid. Since I’ve switched, my experiences have matched @Reefahholic ’s. Citric acid is safer than muriatic acid but quicker than vinegar (and also smells better!) THe only downside is it’s not as easy to find. I generally order mine from BRS.



After reading this article I switched to citric acid and your assessment matches my experience. I also like that you don’t need to be as concerned with safety and fumes with citric acid as you do with muriatic acid. Up here in MN, doing things outside isn’t a great option for a significant part of the year!

this is kinda unrelated, but I don’t wanna make a whole thread lol. I’m filling my tank right now, and am about to clean my equipment being used. Should I just use some hot water and rinse/ wipe all equipment before it being used in my tank tonight??