I like that they introduce ideas which many reefers wouldn't have even though of or known anything about otherwise. After that introduction to the very basics if the hobbyist wishes to learn more they need to do their own further research.
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Quite true, to be provocative I'd say - just because people have done things for decades and done well, don't exempt it entirely from your BSfilter.If your goal is to have a mature stable successful reef aquarium, just replicate the things that 50+ years of successful hobbyists before you have done. It will ultimately come down to good husbandry and a strong bull**** filter.
The reason I like to use live ocean rock due to the bacterial biodiversity is partly because although I know the bacterial diversity won't last, I like the idea of allowing whatever natural bacteria will become dominant to become the dominant strain(s) since it seems likely it would turn out to be a strain not present in additives.Quite true, to be provocative I'd say - just because people have done things for decades and done well, don't exempt it entirely from your BSfilter.
I agree with you, I also did research on coral pathogen and it seems to be very unclearTrue @livinlifeinBKK, I'm always skeptical of something that is offered in this hobby that few or no one can verify. I will say - at least on the coral pathogen side of things, this is actually happening. University microbiology labs are also testing the emerging story of the connections between captive coral disease, specific bacterial species, and their treatments with antibiotics. So far the results I'm aware of are telling the same story whether by aquabiomics or academic labs.
I'm doubtful this hobby can support multiple water DNA testing services when the benefits of such services are so debatable and the info provided so technical. Feels like a small potential pool of users.
Just to put this lack of clarity in perspective, tying an observed coral disease in a hobby coral to a specific pathogen had not been a thing that had ever been done - before the last year or two.I agree with you, I also did research on coral pathogen and it seems to be very unclear
Hi @taricha I love these threads. Thank you for what you do. This is a fascinating subject for sure.Just to put this lack of clarity in perspective, tying an observed coral disease in a hobby coral to a specific pathogen had not been a thing that had ever been done - before the last year or two.
I am kinda on the same page. Definitely agree that a strong BS filter is needed because the stuff gets generated with greater efficiency than it did 50 years ago thanks to the internet. If it’s on YouTube it must be true. The BRS experiment was a messy affair.This religion of pseudo science concerning biodiversity and bacterial composition has always been strange to me.
Let me summarize it for you… who cares. What a massive waste of time. We already went down this rabbit hole with Ron Shimek.
If your goal is to have a mature stable successful reef aquarium, just replicate the things that 50+ years of successful hobbyists before you have done. It will ultimately come down to good husbandry and a strong bull**** filter.
The successful aquarium is highly correlated (I conjecture) with the aquarist. There are some folks who “get” how to care for animals and there are the rest who need to work very hard to be successful. The majority of the latter group do not like to work hard.
The bacterial biodiversity narrative is another flavor of the month explanation for a successful aquarium. I for one have under appreciated their role in the aquarium but they are not the microscopic gods of good luck.
I am kinda on the same page. Definitely agree that a strong BS filter is needed because the stuff gets generated with greater efficiency than it did 50 years ago thanks to the internet. If it’s on YouTube it must be true. The BRS experiment was a messy affair.
The successful aquarium is highly correlated (I conjecture) with the aquarist. There are some folks who “get” how to care for animals and there are the rest who need to work very hard to be successful. The majority of the latter group do not like to work hard.
The bacterial biodiversity narrative is another flavor of the month explanation for a successful aquarium. I for one have under appreciated their role in the aquarium but they are not the microscopic gods of good luck.
I agree with you, in fact I wouldn't say that youtube is a truthful or good source, everything there needs to be analyzed and then some conclusions made.Just to clarify we are talking about our hobby, right? Teasing aside I think most long term hobbyist would agree with this. Few have asked me about my tank in passing and wondered how they could get started. Once I mentioned it should be viewed a long term commitment like keeping a parrot or raising a child a few of them chuckled and said no thank you
I wanted it to be a thing. Being honest I really did. Having run a couple tests in 2021 and again this past month I have to say it isn't ready for prime time (in my opinion). There is no longer time available for them to review each test and provide personal feedback, the data isn't presented such that one can plot out trends or do their own analysis (their reports have even changed between 2021 and today), and linking of some content to WikipediA is, well, dangerous in my opinion as contributors are volunteers. Who says they updated it correctly? More importantly I really want to know who's display they are comparing my sample to and can I see a photo of that display, its age, so I can compare to mine.
I still have hope that they can work through their process, reports, timeliness, and presentation layer but in my experience it wouldn't be something I'd recommend.
Besides this we should be careful how we use this data, because often errors occur that lead to critical results, I usually prefer to compare them with some general ones to have a better understanding and generally to know if the results are correct, this I learned in college when I was doing writing using browse this site this was really interesting to learn, especially because it was a simple piece of writing that I had to submit as individual work that I had to do for literature, compare and contrast is a brilliant technique that I already use every time, I have to say that after my observations this has become a good skill, because from now on all my tests are produced in a more natural way and the results are much closer to reality, this makes me very happy. I think that everyone should read this post and in these conditions I hope that our tests will become more realistic.
Hi @taricha I love these threads. Thank you for what you do. This is a fascinating subject for sure.
Do you have or know of anyone that has a thread, papers or data tracking known hobbyist coral pathogens and antibiotics/medications used to treat them succesfully?
I'd love to see a thread and discussion this subject.
And I'll add one more....It seems like right now is a particularly significant time for progress in treating the diseases of coral.
Sprung and Delbeek in [April '23] talked about forthcoming published results on this front.
Mike Paletta just wrote up this article as well in ReefBuilders.
And Aquabiomics work on brown jelly disease written up a couple of years ago.
(all of these 3 I mentioned seem to be talking about using similar antibiotics against a range of diseases in a few different kinds of corals.)
Apparently, the same arcobacter species that is the central character of this thread is also a likely cause behind Brown Jelly in goniopora, and RTN in millepora. Would not have guessed that these diseases in these different corals are the same disease - but it seems at least likely that they can all be caused by the exact same pathogen. See vid below.
Dr. Eli Meyer from AquaBiomics and Dr. Andrew Bouwma (29:30 - 31:45 in video)
Dr. Bouwma also mentions that another antibiotic may be more sensible choice as it acts like cipro, but is not a human-use antibiotic.
This is not entirely unknowable. There have been a number of people on this site with fantastic systems who have done aquabiomics reports and shared them.More importantly I really want to know who's display they are comparing my sample to and can I see a photo of that display, its age, so I can compare to mine.
The bacterial biodiversity narrative is another flavor of the month explanation for a successful aquarium. I for one have under appreciated their role in the aquarium but they are not the microscopic gods of good luck.
This is not entirely unknowable. There have been a number of people on this site with fantastic systems who have done aquabiomics reports and shared them.
And a few others around elsewhere (youtube). I haven't seen anything in looking at those that would support this concern - that the database "average" might be some sort of undesirable average.
Thank you for this post Absoloute treasure trove of information here. Extremely fascinating and interesting stuff. I cannot wait until the findings from the reefbums episode are published. Very cool!These quotes below are the extent of the info that I have run across.
And I'll add one more....
On the other side of the coin, there is a research group in the Caribbean that is using a probiotic paste to treat infected stony corals in the wild - somewhat successfully.
https://www.ushijima-lab.com/
I've heard microbiological people describe fight against captive coral disease as two pronged: antibiotics and probiotics. I look forward to when the probiotic side is a viable choice in the hobby. It's lagging a bit behind the antibiotic side, but seems to be moving forward.