copper power!! will it kill or will it not? always wanted to test this theory.

[ddc0715]

ok so i have had something in my fowler every since i moved my 3yr old Emporer and he died in the fowler from the stress of moving. imo. this is not a post about that.

i have continued to lose fish in this tank due to velvet again (imo) but four fish have never been affected as others got fuzzy quick and died. they are (niger trigger, engineer goby, diamond goby, yellowtail damsel, and a Fiji Foxface) so is it velvet who knows. again this post is not about disease id or why these other fish never get infected. but that is a good topic.

i decided to remove all soft corals from this tank and nuck it with copper (no corals will go back in) I have removed all the snails I could reach and find, but some snails and softies remain in the tank. some gsp, nuclear green palys, four mushrooms, one emerald crab, some small turbos, and trochus snails. my tank is 220DT/265TG and I'm estimating 200g total water. I'm using copper power which states 1oz per 20 gallons so that would require a dose of 10oz (200/20).

I dosed 1/2 of that or 5 oz yesterday afternoon and plan on dosing the other half in small doses, maybe 1oz each day until I reach the proper level. There is a good write up on using copper power here in reef to reef and that is what I will be used to dial in my final levels of copper.


1.48ml per gallon = 2.5ppm
1.33ml per gallon = 2.25ppm
1.18ml per gallon = 2.0ppm
1.04ml per gallon = 1.75ppm
.89ml per gallon = 1.5ppm


but 24 hours and 5 oz of copper later, Hana checker is arriving today so I have no idea right now of what the cureent ppm is, but everything is still alive I will keep you updated. INTERESTING!!!!!!!

 

[threebuoys]

So, are you testing to see if the coral, invertebrates and live rock remaining in the tank live or die? Is that why you intend to ramp up over several days instead of over say 24 hours which has become more common when treating fish?

 

[ddc0715]

No to wanting to watch live rock,coral and remains inverts. I'm ramping to insure I do not shock the fish in anyway. After all copper (as good as it is) is hard on fish, so I kinda want to take the addtion of copper slow... personal preference I guess.the fish that remain are fine. Very odd. So in a way I'm treating for a disease that seems to not affect the remaing older fish. I mean why would all others die and those few go unaffected? Again very odd. But the affected fish clearly suffer from what I would call velvet, but im no fish specialist. It's like they get stressed maybe, brake out in fuzz then dead. I qt for several weeks prior to adding my fish. They live for several weeks eat well. Then all of a sudden BAMMMM.

 

[davidcalgary29]

If you suspect a disease or parasitic infection, I think it would be far wiser to remove your fish and treat -- even in a temporary hospital tank in a garbage can -- rather than risk your display and the inverts in it. You don't, after all, know if you have a disease that copper will even treat, but you're going to permanently make your display hostile to all inverts. I had a snail hitchhike in on some PVC during copper power quarantine earlier this year. It died in a couple of days.

 

[threebuoys]

No to wanting to watch live rock,coral and remains inverts. I'm ramping to insure I do not shock the fish in anyway. After all copper (as good as it is) is hard on fish, so I kinda want to take the addtion of copper slow... personal preference I guess.the fish that remain are fine. Very odd. So in a way I'm treating for a disease that seems to not affect the remaing older fish. I mean why would all others die and those few go unaffected? Again very odd. But the affected fish clearly suffer from what I would call velvet, but im no fish specialist. It's like they get stressed maybe, brake out in fuzz then dead. I qt for several weeks prior to adding my fish. They live for several weeks eat well. Then all of a sudden BAMMMM.

So, is it your intention to operate the tank as FOWLR going forward?

If so, you should be able to ramp up more quickly. Then, make sure you stay steady at 2.50 for Copper Power for at least 30 days and you will have effectively used your DT as a QT.

I know you said your intent with this thread was not to seek help in identifying what disease was present.However, without knowing, it's impossible to say copper is your solution.

If you intend to add corals back into the tank, you will need to remove all traces of copper or run the risk of killing the coral.

Good Luck.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

What's the point of nuking the rock? It's going to continue absorbing your copper the whole time leaving you with unstable levels, then bleed it out over an extremely long period of time when you are finished treating.

 

[ddc0715]

It's going to be an remain fish only going forward. The few fish that did fall ill were taken to my vet who knows fish and id its as velvet. So I'm not really guessing. yes I took a dead fish to the vet. . I don't know what harder killing velvet or finding a vet...So going forward there will be no coral ever put back in this tank.thats what my 150 mixed reef is for. As for pulling them out an treating the fish. I did this the last time and let this tank sit empty for about two months. Was I one day to early or one day to late when re adding. Who knows. Time frames are normal a rule of thumb.. And thought I had it dealt with. FALLOW. It was good for awhile. Then over the past few days they have been dropping AGAIN... like flies. So yes I'm turning this tank into a qt. For awhile until I feel good about adding anymore fish. Once I hold at 2.5 for awhile. I will start with water changes and carbon until I'm back at 0 copper. this will be a long process. I know.But really its the only way to be sure. I have some cholrine phosphate but I desided on using copper instead beacuse the CP gets absorbed and that stuff is pricey copper not so much.

 

[davidcalgary29]

It's going to be an remain fish only going forward. The few fish that did fall ill were taken to my vet who knows fish and id its as velvet. So I'm not really guessing. yes I took a dead fish to the vet. . I don't know what harder killing velvet or finding a vet...So going forward there will be no coral ever put back in this tank.thats what my 150 mixed reef is for. As for pulling them out an treating the fish. I did this the last time and let this tank sit empty for about two months. Was I one day to early or one day to late when re adding. Who knows. Time frames are normal a rule of thumb.. And thought I had it dealt with. FALLOW. It was good for awhile. Then over the past few days they have been dropping AGAIN... like flies. So yes I'm turning this tank into a qt. For awhile until I feel good about adding anymore fish. Once I hold at 2.5 for awhile. I will start with water changes and carbon until I'm back at 0 copper. this will be a long process. I know.But really its the only way to be sure. I have some cholrine phosphate but I desided on using copper instead beacuse the CP gets absorbed and that stuff is pricey copper not so much.

It's not just corals, though: you're not going to be able to have a CUC if you do this. That's going to make tank maintenance extremely difficult without snails, urchins, or crabs to clean the algae off of your rocks. If you're going this route, I'd take out all rocks and substrate (and surviving inverts) and put them in a garbage can with a powerhead and let that go fallow for 45 or 72 (76) days. You can then add PVC elbows to your display and treat it with copper much more safely.

If you elect not to do that and -- as one other poster mentioned -- "nuke" your rock, you can try to remove the copper later with cuprisorb. I'm not sure it'll help all that much once copper has leached into live rock, but you can try.

 

[ddc0715]

day two. all remaining invert and coral stragglers are still alive, fish seem good .... got the copper at 2.5 ppm last night. will test tonight at the same time. i really wish the Hana checkers came with a liquid and not a powered reagent.

as I mentioned this is not going to be a short process. I will not add anything ( inverts) other than fish until I have insured and feel comfortable that all copper has been removed. as fo algee if it appears during this process. I have had great luck with flux Rx. I mean let's be clear, I'm not dosing copper in my DT, only to turn around in 3 days and by new inverts. lol, i mean really? lol

very few have done this before and most advice is based on "what we have been lead to believe"? I have been reading up on this it seems to be more success stories than sad ones.

one 4 page thread I read by Marc88 was about copper adding to his DT. it worked out fine. a lot of support went his way.

I mean I'm kind of excited to see just how long the stragglers and corals last. but most importantly I'm sick of watching my fish pass away. Then I will know for sure and will not be guessing anymore.

Happy thanksgiving

 

[ddc0715]

update.... copper holding steady at 2.35 tested today (.15 drop since original post) I would assume the rock or sand is soaking it up. but my thirty-day copper soak at (2-2.5) is up on 12-27-21. all fish are fine no shocker there. wife asked the other day..-----since this is a large qt tank can we not just add a new fish directly into it now?------ HMMMMMM!!!

 

[angelsandtangs]

update.... copper holding steady at 2.35 tested today (.15 drop since original post) I would assume the rock or sand is soaking it up. but my thirty-day copper soak at (2-2.5) is up on 12-27-21. all fish are fine no shocker there. wife asked the other day..-----since this is a large qt tank can we not just add a new fish directly into it now?------ HMMMMMM!!!

I’ve nuked a Fowlr tank before with cupramine a few times and the first few times failed miserably because of the dummies at seachem support due to their testing kit after I figured it out I found that rock and sand does not absorb a ton of copper imo it was minimal and treated my tank successfully with minimal losses .. now I use copper power it’s way better than cupramine imo ..this was 14 years ago .. before that my first Fowlr tank about 20 years ago before internet I had a velvet outbreak just dosed coopersafe per instructions and every fish made it through with no test kits I removed all copper with carbon and cuprisorb and water changes and a year later converted it to a reef with zero issues .. I really think these days people just forward info they read or was told and not give advice based on experience..

FYI I use a Hannah test kit and monitor levels so I’m not so reckless in my old age ..

 

[Duncan62]

ok so i have had something in my fowler every since i moved my 3yr old Emporer and he died in the fowler from the stress of moving. imo. this is not a post about that.

i have continued to lose fish in this tank due to velvet again (imo) but four fish have never been affected as others got fuzzy quick and died. they are (niger trigger, engineer goby, diamond goby, yellowtail damsel, and a Fiji Foxface) so is it velvet who knows. again this post is not about disease id or why these other fish never get infected. but that is a good topic.

i decided to remove all soft corals from this tank and nuck it with copper (no corals will go back in) I have removed all the snails I could reach and find, but some snails and softies remain in the tank. some gsp, nuclear green palys, four mushrooms, one emerald crab, some small turbos, and trochus snails. my tank is 220DT/265TG and I'm estimating 200g total water. I'm using copper power which states 1oz per 20 gallons so that would require a dose of 10oz (200/20).

I dosed 1/2 of that or 5 oz yesterday afternoon and plan on dosing the other half in small doses, maybe 1oz each day until I reach the proper level. There is a good write up on using copper power here in reef to reef and that is what I will be used to dial in my final levels of copper.


1.48ml per gallon = 2.5ppm
1.33ml per gallon = 2.25ppm
1.18ml per gallon = 2.0ppm
1.04ml per gallon = 1.75ppm
.89ml per gallon = 1.5ppm


but 24 hours and 5 oz of copper later, Hana checker is arriving today so I have no idea right now of what the cureent ppm is, but everything is still alive I will keep you updated. INTERESTING!!!!!!!

Do you have an algea scrubber or refugium? I tried to medicate a fish only tank that ran on a scrubber. It sucked the copper out of the water before it could work.. lots of algea in the tank can do the same. Copper works. I've never seen the brand your using but I don't think fish keeping can work without it.

 

[MaxTremors]

I’ve nuked a Fowlr tank before with cupramine a few times and the first few times failed miserably because of the dummies at seachem support due to their testing kit after I figured it out I found that rock and sand does not absorb a ton of copper imo it was minimal and treated my tank successfully with minimal losses .. now I use copper power it’s way better than cupramine imo ..this was 14 years ago .. before that my first Fowlr tank about 20 years ago before internet I had a velvet outbreak just dosed coopersafe per instructions and every fish made it through with no test kits I removed all copper with carbon and cuprisorb and water changes and a year later converted it to a reef with zero issues .. I really think these days people just forward info they read or was told and not give advice based on experience..

FYI I use a Hannah test kit and monitor levels so I’m not so reckless in my old age ..

I have ruined a tank with copper. Early in my reefing career I dosed copper into a reef tank, and it it essentially ruined the tank. I didn’t have a copper test kits at the time, but dosed it according to the instructions, and after 30 days I ran cuprisorb. Over the next year all my inverts slowly died and corals wasted away, it wasn’t a quick or overnight thing. Over that year I ran cuprisorb two more times, and never saw a rebound. After a year I decided to just get rid of the rocks and sand and start over, and that is what I would do if I put copper into a display tank today. Like I said, it’s a slow degradation, so as your inverts and corals slowly die, it’s hard to trouble shoot because you never know if it’s the trace amount of copper or something else. My opinion is that while you may end up not having any problems after dosing (and removing) copper, you also might, and the risk isn’t worth it (nevermind the ethics of knowingly keeping animals in an environment you know could be potentially toxic for them).

 

[Duncan62]

I have ruined a tank with copper. Early in my reefing career I dosed copper into a reef tank, and it it essentially ruined the tank. I didn’t have a copper test kits at the time, but dosed it according to the instructions, and after 30 days I ran cuprisorb. Over the next year all my inverts slowly died and corals wasted away, it wasn’t a quick or overnight thing. Over that year I ran cuprisorb two more times, and never saw a rebound. After a year I decided to just get rid of the rocks and sand and start over, and that is what I would do if I put copper into a display tank today. Like I said, it’s a slow degradation, so as your inverts and corals slowly die, it’s hard to trouble shoot because you never know if it’s the trace amount of copper or something else. My opinion is that while you may end up not having any problems after dosing (and removing) copper, you also might, and the risk isn’t worth it (nevermind the ethics of knowingly keeping animals in an environment you know could be potentially toxic for them).

Copper is fish only. Toxicity to inverts is what makes it work. It's not selective but valuable to fish only keepers and as a dip.

 

[ddc0715]

good input and some rock-solid advice everyone. as for not running copper. well, it's too late for that. I will be running carbon and cuprisorb or an equal when it's time to remove. but there is no plans for this tank to become a reef.
I have ramped up the temp of the FOWLR tank the other day in an effort to aid the life cycle of any parasites, to help them hatch so they can meet Mr copper.

lastly I'm just curious if 30 days at 2-2.5 cooper level is enough time to be sure it works on anything in the tank. would it hurt to run this 2-2.5 level longer than 30 days?

 

[Snoopy 67]

Jay Hemdal should be able to give you more input.
He is a professional aquarist @ a public aquarium.

 

[MaxTremors]

Copper is fish only. Toxicity to inverts is what makes it work. It's not selective but valuable to fish only keepers and as a dip.

That was my point, people earlier in the thread were saying that low level copper isn’t deadly for inverts, and my experience is that it absolutely is, it’s not a quick death at low levels, it’s a slow decline/degradation in general health, coral tissue recedes, they don’t fully extend polyps, lose color, and just kind of wither away, inverts like hermits and snails can take weeks or months to die, in my tank I started with probably 30 of each, and by the end of the year all were dead (a few nassarius snails survived). My point was that using copper in a display tank is a bad idea, even if you don’t plan on keeping corals, and that cuprisorb doesn’t remove 100% of copper, especially if you have really porous rock.

 

[Duncan62]

That was my point, people earlier in the thread were saying that low level copper isn’t deadly for inverts, and my experience is that it absolutely is, it’s not a quick death at low levels, it’s a slow decline/degradation in general health, coral tissue recedes, they don’t fully extend polyps, lose color, and just kind of wither away, inverts like hermits and snails can take weeks or months to die, in my tank I started with probably 30 of each, and by the end of the year all were dead (a few nassarius snails survived). My point was that using copper in a display tank is a bad idea, even if you don’t plan on keeping corals, and that cuprisorb doesn’t remove 100% of copper, especially if you have really porous rock.

The only " low " level is the undetectable amounts found in sea salt mixes and trace elements. Any dose effective on parasitic disease will kill inverts.

 

[Duncan62]

good input and some rock-solid advice everyone. as for not running copper. well, it's too late for that. I will be running carbon and cuprisorb or an equal when it's time to remove. but there is no plans for this tank to become a reef.
I have ramped up the temp of the FOWLR tank the other day in an effort to aid the life cycle of any parasites, to help them hatch so they can meet Mr copper.

lastly I'm just curious if 30 days at 2-2.5 cooper level is enough time to be sure it works on anything in the tank. would it hurt to run this 2-2.5 level longer than 30 days?

In my fish only tanks I've always kept copper in the tank all the time with no harm to fish. Way back when pennies were copper people including me put some in the tank out of site. Times have changed but if you are adding animals often copper is a must.

 

[ddc0715]

well, odd find today. my copper levels are still held at 2-.2.5 2.31 to be exact. my straggler corals have died. no shocker there. but today. i saw all of my emerald crab crawling around picking at rocks like nothing was wrong. I also found about four of my trochus snails moving around.
I mean..... 2.3-2.5 ppm of copper in the tank? people say these guys (INVERTS) should be dead... they are not....... what the heck......... HAHAHAHAHA