Copper treatment

[JumboShrimp]

I can jump in here, @Humblefish has help me a lot, and I have used CopperSafe many times. Carbon will pull it— but depending on the size of your tank, large water changes might be faster to get a jump on things; then pulls what’s left with carbon. Hope this helps

 

[JumboShrimp]

Looks like we have three people building a consensus (lol).

 

[EakTheFreak]

@Humblefish @JumboShrimp Thank you both!

 

[NubNub1]

Hello

I have got a treatment called cobrasal, the think is I'm not sure what type of copper it is so not sure of the dosing level should it be 1.5 - 2 or 0.25. Anyhelp or thoughts would be much aprecated.

 

[NubNub1]

Hello

I have got a treatment called cobrasal, the think is I'm not sure what type of copper it is so not sure of the dosing level should it be 1.5 - 2 or 0.25. Anyhelp or thoughts would be much aprecated.

Hello I have found out the copper used is Copper sulfate, does anyone know what therapeutic range should be.

Paul

 

[JumboShrimp]

Hey there, Paul. I use CopperSafe (1.5 - 2.0), but type it into the Search bar and I’m sure you’ll find something... unless someone here gets back to you promptly. But maybe not during the Super Bowl !

 

[BAPrince]

Outstanding articles here by @Humblefish and others... thank you.

Setting up my first QT tank. Bought an Aqueon 10g combo kit that included a HOB filter. The filter media included with the HOB has carbon, which I knew wasn't recommended, so I bought some Penn Plax Polyfiber for mechanical filtration. It is NOT brand-name Poly Filter, which I know will remove copper. It just says "filter media pad". Will this work? Or should I use something else in the HOB for mechanical filtration?

I bought it from the LFS, but it's this....

 

[JumboShrimp]

I think you’re OK if the weave is tight enough, but I defer to someone with more actual knowledge

 

[cmoore806]

Outstanding articles here by @Humblefish and others... thank you.

Setting up my first QT tank. Bought an Aqueon 10g combo kit that included a HOB filter. The filter media included with the HOB has carbon, which I knew wasn't recommended, so I bought some Penn Plax Polyfiber for mechanical filtration. It is NOT brand-name Poly Filter, which I know will remove copper. It just says "filter media pad". Will this work? Or should I use something else in the HOB for mechanical filtration?

I bought it from the LFS, but it's this....

I just bought the same Aqueon 10gallon kit and bought this for filter media,


I also found a mesh bag to but completely around the blue rectangle filter holder in the HOB unit. I might but some Seachem matrix in there for bio filter material and then have another small mesh bag of carbon that I can remove for treating with copper.

 

[kartrsu]

Sorry if this has been asked already, but does copper affect the protomont stage when the trophont falls off? I’m curious cause it would seem that if you dosed to therapeutic and kept there for a week, the fish should be theoretically free from ich on its body and also protected by copper from any free swimmers (if they have even encysted). So, couldn’t you take the fish out of copper after a week of therapeutic into another clean QT and be reasonably safe?

 

[Jedi Knghit]

Sorry if this has been asked already, but does copper affect the protomont stage when the trophont falls off? I’m curious cause it would seem that if you dosed to therapeutic and kept there for a week, the fish should be theoretically free from ich on its body and also protected by copper from any free swimmers (if they have even encysted). So, couldn’t you take the fish out of copper after a week of therapeutic into another clean QT and be reasonably safe?

I have never seen anyone suggest running copper for 7 days, so I am guessing it isn't sufficient.

The two common scenarios posted here are:

1) 14 days in copper at therapeutic level then transfer to a new sterile QT.

2) 30 days in copper at therapeutic level then remove the copper via WC, carbon, etc.

 

[kartrsu]

Thanks, I’ve tried both scenarios with great success. Currently ich and velvet free.

I guess I’m being a nerd and trying to understand copper vs ich in QT in the context of ich’s lifecycle. Lets say you just bought a fish.You can introduce ich via 1) fish itself or 2) any water that makes it in. If it comes in on the fish, it’ll fall off in 3-7 days from what I read. Velvet even faster. So if you start day 1 of getting fish at 1ppm and ramp to 2ppm in 4 days, by day 5 you are insulated against free swimmers. By day 7, all ich / velvet has fallen off. So you now have an ichless fish in 2ppm of copper. Theoretically, you could take the fish out and put into QT2. So just a week.

Maybe 14 days is the conservative measure. Better safe than sorry.

 

[mikeintoronto]

Thanks, I’ve tried both scenarios with great success. Currently ich and velvet free.

I guess I’m being a nerd and trying to understand copper vs ich in QT in the context of ich’s lifecycle. Lets say you just bought a fish.You can introduce ich via 1) fish itself or 2) any water that makes it in. If it comes in on the fish, it’ll fall off in 3-7 days from what I read. Velvet even faster. So if you start day 1 of getting fish at 1ppm and ramp to 2ppm in 4 days, by day 5 you are insulated against free swimmers. By day 7, all ich / velvet has fallen off. So you now have an ichless fish in 2ppm of copper. Theoretically, you could take the fish out and put into QT2. So just a week.

Maybe 14 days is the conservative measure. Better safe than sorry.

Yes. If you visit his forum he explains it much better but theoretically you are ich free in 7-10 days but the extra days are insurance.

 

[shoelaceike]

Copper treatment

What It Treats – Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) and Marine Velvet Disease (Amyloodinium ocellatum). There is some anecdotal evidence that copper will suppress symptoms of Brooklynella hostilis and Uronema marinum; however it is unlikely to completely eradicate either.

How To Treat – First, it is important to know what kind of copper you are using. Below is a list of the most commonly available copper products, their therapeutic ranges and compatible copper test kit(s):

• Cuprion (0.20 ppm): Seachem or Salifert copper test kit
• Cupramine (0.5 ppm): Seachem or Salifert copper test kit
• Coppersafe (1.5 – 2.0 ppm): API copper test kit
• Kordon Copper Aid (1.5 – 2.0 ppm): API copper test kit (Avoid this brand of copper; it’s too watered down)
• Copper Power (1.5 – 2.0 ppm): API copper test kit

In addition to the aforementioned hobbyist grade test kits, the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702) is a highly accurate “professional grade” test kit capable of reading all forms of copper: https://hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html

** (I personally use Copper Power + Hanna copper colorimeter, and treat at 2.0 ppm.) **​

How long to use copper on a fish depends upon whether you have 1 or 2 quarantine tanks to work with. If just 1 QT, treat for 30 consecutive days. The reason this approach takes so long is because copper only targets the “free swimming stage”. While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage, certain strains of Marine Ich have a prolonged life cycle. Indeed, even 30 days may not be sufficient in some rare cases. This is why it is so important to observe after treatment ends, to ensure symptoms do not return.

A therapeutic level must be maintained at all times during the 30 days, so testing often is important. If the level drops even slightly out of range, then the 30 day clock restarts. One reason your copper level may drop unexpectedly is if you are treating in a tank with rock and substrate; these should be avoided with copper due to absorption. Conversely, if you exceed the therapeutic range you risk killing the fish.

Copper is a poison, pure and simple. It only works because most fish are able to withstand being in it longer than the parasites. Knowing this, some feel it is wise to raise the copper level very slowly (over 5-7 days) instead of the usual 24-48 hour label directions. However, I have had the best success dropping fish into QTs predosed with Copper Power @ 1.0ppm, and then take 48 hours to reach minimum therapeutic (1.5 ppm). I then take another 48 hours to achieve 2.0 ppm, which is my “sweet spot” for using chelated copper. These increases in copper are done very gradually, dosing the QT multiple times per day.

So, what if I have TWO quarantine tanks to work with? Well, in that case you only need to treat with copper for 14 DAYS and then transfer the fish into QT#2. Provided the following:

1. Copper level must be at FULL THERAPEUTIC for the entire 14 days (very important).
2. Nothing from QT#1 can be reused to setup QT#2. Transfer just the fish; nothing else!
3. The two QTs must be at least 10 feet apart, to avoid any possibility of aerosol transmission. Also be careful to avoid cross contamination via wet hands, feeding apparatus, anything wet really…
4. Do not lower the copper level prior to transferring. QT#2 should be copper free, so you can observe to ensure treatment was successful. You can, however, treat with other medications (e.g. Prazipro if you need to deworm) in QT#2.

The above strategy works because after 14 days any ich or velvet trophonts should have dropped off the fish. The presence of copper in the water shields your fish from reinfection from any unhatched tomonts (which release free swimmers). It’s these unhatched tomonts you want to transfer your fish away from, because some ich tomonts can take up to 72 days to release all of their free swimmers. Thus, understand that QT#1 is still possibly contaminated with ich and/or velvet tomonts (plus any other diseases the fish was carrying) even after all the fish have been transferred out. Which is why sterilizing QT#1 in-between batches of fish is a good idea.

Pros – Readily available.

Cons/Side Effects – Appetite suppression and lethargy are common side effects. If a fish stops eating completely, perform water changes (to lower the copper concentration) until he eats. If this happens a second time after you resume raising the copper, you’ll know you’ve encountered a “copper sensitive” fish and an alternative treatment should be used instead. (Note: Anytime you lower the copper level below therapeutic, the 30 day treatment clock begins anew once the copper is raised back up.)

How long does ich or velvet stay on the fish?

 

[ReefLab]

How long does ich or velvet stay on the fish?

“While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage,”

 

[shoelaceike]

“While 7-14 days is the “norm” to reach this stage,”

Thanks. I've read other places that it is 5-7 days. I'm trying to minimize the copper exposure as this is my second attempt. Somehow ich got through my first 14 days of copper.

 

[ReefLab]

Thanks. I've read other places that it is 5-7 days. I'm trying to minimize the copper exposure as this is my second attempt. Somehow ich got through my first 14 days of copper.

I typically do 10 days at a minimum of 1.75ppm using copper power & testing with the Hanna colorimeter. All have been prophylactic, however. If I had a fish that I knew had ich or velvet, I would likely do 30 days with a tank transfer at 14

 

[shoelaceike]

I had velvet and kept the copper above 1.75 for 14 days. A few days after transferring to a new tank, i saw some spots develop. I treated with GC and paragaurd. I then decided to do another bout of copper at a higher dose. Right now they are in copper at 2.20. I would like to get them out of this as early as possible. So far its been 5 days and there are definitely spots on my hippo tang.

 

[ReefLab]

I had velvet and kept the copper above 1.75 for 14 days. A few days after transferring to a new tank, i saw some spots develop. I treated with GC and paragaurd. I then decided to do another bout of copper at a higher dose. Right now they are in copper at 2.20. I would like to get them out of this as early as possible. So far its been 5 days and there are definitely spots on my hippo tang.

Keep the dose at 2.2 or higher and keep the lights off (velvet is photosynthetic). Be sure to test daily as things may absorb copper.
probably need to keep him in there at least 14 days. If he shows signs of copper sensitivity, you may want to try chloroquine phosphate.

 

[shoelaceike]

No real sensitivity but I got a bunch of fish in a 20 gallon and its totally too small and unnatural. They need to get back into the DT asap. Also, while the lights are usually off, I believe that marine velvet is not photosynthetic. Freshwater velvet is.