DIY Ammonia dosing for low nitrate systems

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was sourcing Ammonium Chloride here in the UK and found Dr.Tims ammonium chloride on Amazon in a 2 ounce bottle so it’s already in solution. Would this be a comparible strength to your stock solutions and would dosing be the same ?

I do not know the strength, but I'd also be a bit wary using it. It may be fine, but it is not intended for dosing continually, but rather just a few times for cycling, and may not be adequately pure (it provides no purity info that I have seen).

 

[Tuna Melt]

Do you think dosing to the return pump chamber is safe? I’d like for it to be downstream of my algae scrubber. Using a dosing pump so diluted doses

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you think dosing to the return pump chamber is safe? I’d like for it to be downstream of my algae scrubber. Using a dosing pump so diluted doses

That sounds reasonable

 

[Armt350]

I was previously dosing Microbe lift Basic NO3 and PO4 per bottle instructions to attempt to raise NO3 to 15ppm and PO4 to 0.01. I never reached a measurable amount of NO3, PO4 reached 0.01 and was maintained. Accompanied by this was a hair algae bloom that started a week after dosing.

I stopped dosing both for 3 days with no light and let the clean up crew fix the algae problem.

I then started dosing Ammonium Bicarbonate (20g/l RODI) 30 ml per day. This is my impression after 2 weeks. The tank quickly went through another Diatom bloom. The soft corals which had previously been stagnant for about a month and a half, started growing splitting after week 1. The Flower pot Goniopora has begun encrusting over its base. The acropora has hit a growth spurt. Montipora and Porites have as of yet did not react.

As of this past weekend, I have gotten the first measurable nitrate, although its still lower than desired but no further algae blooms.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I was previously dosing Microbe lift Basic NO3 and PO4 per bottle instructions to attempt to raise NO3 to 15ppm and PO4 to 0.01. I never reached a measurable amount of NO3, PO4 reached 0.01 and was maintained. Accompanied by this was a hair algae bloom that started a week after dosing.

I stopped dosing both for 3 days with no light and let the clean up crew fix the algae problem.

I then started dosing Ammonium Bicarbonate (20g/l RODI) 30 ml per day. This is my impression after 2 weeks. The tank quickly went through another Diatom bloom. The soft corals which had previously been stagnant for about a month and a half, started growing splitting after week 1. The Flower pot Goniopora has begun encrusting over its base. The acropora has hit a growth spurt. Montipora and Porites have as of yet did not react.

As of this past weekend, I have gotten the first measurable nitrate, although its still lower than desired but no further algae blooms.

Thanks for the update!

 

[ReefRookies]

I find this extremely interesting, and was something I was already considering myself. I have a tank, 275g total volume, that refuses to produce any measurable NO3 or PO4. I have a theory as to why this is but its only based on my basic understanding of how bacteria work. Still, the tank has not registered above 0ppm on either in the last year or so. Even if I take my skimmer offline and empty my refugeum; the readings remain at 0ppm. However, cyano shows up rapidly and with aggression. Additionally if I dose nitrates cyano begins to show up as well. I have ammonium bicarb in the cart as well as sodium phosphate dibasic (Loudwolf).

I generally prefer to adjust only one variable at a time, however, Im considering attempting to increase PO4 simultaneously. Thoughts on that? If you think that wont be a bad idea, do you have a recommended mixing instruction for the use of 98% Na2HPO4?

I think my tank would be a good example of potential for this given its stuck firmly at 0/0 and has been for quite a while.

Side note: My corals are moderately ok looking but I would say only a few are thriving and growing well. After a read through this thread this morning I decided to add some Dr. Tims ammonium chloride in a small amount on a whim. I did, and was shocked that after a few hours everything looked better than it had in a while. Im sure that effect is exhausted now and looking forward to making it more permanent.

 

[Thunderzone]

I do not know the strength, but I'd also be a bit wary using it. It may be fine, but it is not intended for dosing continually, but rather just a few times for cycling, and may not be adequately pure (it provides no purity info that I have seen).

Ok thanks. I didn’t realise that as I’m wanting to dose on a continuous basis.

 

[Armt350]

I generally prefer to adjust only one variable at a time, however, Im considering attempting to increase PO4 simultaneously. Thoughts on that? If you think that wont be a bad idea, do you have a recommended mixing instruction for the use of 98% Na2HPO4?

Granted this is only backed by my experience and by a smattering of information from when I was in college, but I will no longer attempt to dose any form of PO4. The only thing that seems to occur by dosing has been rapid algae growth. I cannot make the connection between inorganic phosphate dosing and any measurable benefit to our reef tanks.

I'm also of the mind that there is no readily acceptable way to measure organic phosphate other than monitoring the amount of skimmate that is produced. Also that organic phosphate is more important to reef tank health than inorganic phosphate.

But I'm sure Randy will be a far better source of information here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I find this extremely interesting, and was something I was already considering myself. I have a tank, 275g total volume, that refuses to produce any measurable NO3 or PO4. I have a theory as to why this is but its only based on my basic understanding of how bacteria work. Still, the tank has not registered above 0ppm on either in the last year or so. Even if I take my skimmer offline and empty my refugeum; the readings remain at 0ppm. However, cyano shows up rapidly and with aggression. Additionally if I dose nitrates cyano begins to show up as well. I have ammonium bicarb in the cart as well as sodium phosphate dibasic (Loudwolf).

I generally prefer to adjust only one variable at a time, however, Im considering attempting to increase PO4 simultaneously. Thoughts on that? If you think that wont be a bad idea, do you have a recommended mixing instruction for the use of 98% Na2HPO4?

I think my tank would be a good example of potential for this given its stuck firmly at 0/0 and has been for quite a while.

Side note: My corals are moderately ok looking but I would say only a few are thriving and growing well. After a read through this thread this morning I decided to add some Dr. Tims ammonium chloride in a small amount on a whim. I did, and was shocked that after a few hours everything looked better than it had in a while. Im sure that effect is exhausted now and looking forward to making it more permanent.

If nitrate and phosphate are both undetectable, I’d either feed more or dose both.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Granted this is only backed by my experience and by a smattering of information from when I was in college, but I will no longer attempt to dose any form of PO4. The only thing that seems to occur by dosing has been rapid algae growth. I cannot make the connection between inorganic phosphate dosing and any measurable benefit to our reef tanks.

I'm also of the mind that there is no readily acceptable way to measure organic phosphate other than monitoring the amount of skimmate that is produced. Also that organic phosphate is more important to reef tank health than inorganic phosphate.

But I'm sure Randy will be a far better source of information here.

I don’t think there’s any evidence about organic phosphate being more usable, or even as usable as inorganic phosphate.

Do you intentionally dose any form of organic phosphate?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok thanks. I didn’t realise that as I’m wanting to dose on a continuous basis.

Most people do that. If a tank is low in N, a single dose or two does not permanently solve that issue.

 

[Armt350]

I don’t think there’s any evidence about organic phosphate being more usable, or even as usable as inorganic phosphate.

Do you intentionally dose any form of organic phosphate?

If I could find a stable form of organic phosphate in liquid form I would give it a go in a test tank. As of now, the only phosphate containing additive I add is as part of my home made frozen fish and coral food, which is bonemeal.

That decision was based on several studies in the agriculture and farming sector with regard to phosphorus effects on plant and photosynthetic models (ADP -> ATP, NADP -> NADPH)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If I could find a stable form of organic phosphate in liquid form I would give it a go in a test tank. As of now, the only phosphate containing additive I add is as part of my home made frozen fish and coral food, which is bonemeal.

That decision was based on several studies in the agriculture and farming sector with regard to phosphorus effects on plant and photosynthetic models (ADP -> ATP, NADP -> NADPH)

I cannot see how that bears on reefing, to be honest.

 

[Armt350]

I cannot see how that bears on reefing, to be honest.

Which part? Organic phosphate as an additive, the effect of phosphors on photosynthesis, or the inclusion of bone meal?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Which part? Organic phosphate as an additive, the effect of phosphors on photosynthesis, or the inclusion of bone meal?

Determining what may be useful for a reef tank based on experiments on land plants.

I've not seen the data you are referring to, but in land plants it may be as simple as organic phosphate doesn't become an insoluble form (such as precipitated iron and calcium phosphate) until it is broken down by bacteria and made available.

FWIW, land plants do not take up organic phosphate directly, but wait for bacteria to release in inorganic phosphate, then take that up.

Such an issue is not relevant in a reef tank where one can easily have soluble inorganic phosphate at most any level desired.

Phosphorus Basics: Understanding Phosphorus Forms and Their Cycling in the Soil - Alabama Cooperative Extension System

Phosphorus (P) is essential to all forms of life on this planet. It is an essential nutrient necessary for growth and development of plants and animals on which our food supply depends.

www.aces.edu

Phosphorus Forms Present in the Soil
Soil phosphorus is found in two forms, namely organic and inorganic (figure 1). These two forms together make up the total soil phosphorus. Although total soil phosphorus is generally high, with concentrations ranging from 200 to 6,000 pounds per acre, 80 percent of this phosphorus is immobile and not available for uptake by the plant.

Approximately 30 to 65 percent of total soil phosphorus is in organic forms, which are not plant available, while the remaining 35 to 70 percent is in inorganic forms. Organic forms of phosphorus include dead plant/animal residues and soil micro-organisms. Soil micro-organisms play a key role in processing and transforming these organic forms of phosphorus into plant available forms. The inorganic phosphorus forms can be classified to exist in three different pools:

 

[Armt350]

The origin of my thought process came from land-based articles. It was further influenced based on the phosphor cycle found in ocean water columns.

To quote Paytan, Mclaughlin The Oceanic Phosphorus Cycle, " The organic and inorganic particulate and dissolved forms of phosphorus undergo continuous transformations. The dissolved inorganic phosphorus (usually as orthophosphate) is assimilated by phytoplankton and altered to organic phosphorus compounds. The phytoplankton are then ingested by detritivores or zooplankton. A large fraction of the organic phosphorus taken by zooplankton is excreted as dissolved inorganic and organic P"

To get more specific, I view my reef tank to be an imitation of a tidal zone. Sure it's not a 1 for 1, but it's the goal. In line with that they stated "In large regions of the ocean, particularly in surface waters, much of the dissolved P is in the form of dissolved organic phosphorus (DOP), and oceanic productivity in these regions may be dependent on regeneration of bioavailable forms ofP from dissolved organic matter (DOM). For example, in oligotrophic surface waters, dissolved organic P (DOP) often comprises a significant portion of the dissolved P pool. Consequently, regeneration of DOP is a potentially important source of bioavailable P in these regions."

The Oceanic Phosphorus Cycle

So in line with that, organisms living in that zone likely utilize dissolved organic phosphates in some way. Since my tank sure as heck does not a continuous source of growing phyto and zooplankton, I have to substitute sources of P. I do however have at some level, active bacteria that can to some extent hydrolyze P through bacteria born enzymes. This is demonstrated by a raise in measurable PO4 even though I am not knowingly providing a source. I am using 0 TDS RODI, I feed a rinsed sushi grade fish/algae mix that is hopefully preservative free. Although some inorganic P will make its way in with the algae, I would not expect it to be significant.

Just as is being advocated here to try dosing Ammonia since the capability exists in the tank to make NO3, I chose to make organic P available since I suspect the capability exists in the tank to make it inorganic. I fully admit that I may be wrong on that hypothesis.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I still do not see the concern

Yes, inorganic phosphate is taken up and used (meaning converted into organic forms) by many organisms, including corals.

Organisms that consume particulates and dissolved organics will certainly get some of their N and P from those organic particulates.

Feeding particulates and dissolved organics is a fine plan.

What I have an issue with is suggesting that corals do not also take up inorganic phosphate to meet some of their needs, and if natural foods are in short supply, as they may be in a reef tank, inorganic phosphate may supply most of it.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0048969722070449

Abstract​

Phosphorus (P) is an essential but limiting nutrient for coral growth due to low concentrations of dissolved inorganic concentrations (DIP) in reef waters. P limitation is often exacerbated when concentrations of dissolved inorganic nitrogen (DIN) increase in the reef. To increase their access to phosphorus, corals can use organic P dissolved in seawater (DOP). They possess phosphatase enzymes that transform DOP into DIP, which can then be taken up by coral symbionts. Although the concentration of DOP in reef waters is much higher than DIP, the dependence of corals on this P source is still poorly understood, especially with different concentrations of DIN in seawater.

 

[Armt350]

I never suggested that DIP could not be taken up by corals. There is half a century of documentation proving otherwise. My position is that DIP, when available is more rapidly absorbed by algae resulting in algae growth quicker than it is by corals which is why I choose not to dose inorganic PO4. That is combined with my hypothesis that organic P will fill the need for P in corals.

If the way I wrote it appears to insinuate that DIP is unused by corals, please quote that so I know what to edit to be more clear.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I never suggested that DIP could not be taken up by corals. There is half a century of documentation proving otherwise. My position is that DIP, when available is more rapidly absorbed by algae resulting in algae growth quicker than it is by corals which is why I choose not to dose inorganic PO4. That is combined with my hypothesis that organic P will fill the need for P in corals.

If the way I wrote it appears to insinuate that DIP is unused by corals, please quote that so I know what to edit to be more clear.

It's a fine hypothesis to suggest that problem algae may do relatively more poorly than the organisms we want to keep when the phosphorus is supplied in an organic form.

It may well be true, but I've not seen data that shows it. There certainly are tanks with very high phosphate and no algae, but that fact doesn't prove the hypothesis is not correct.

I think it might actually be tricky to maintain sufficient organic phosphate for corals without organisms (including bacteria) transforming it back into inorganic phosphate before corals get it.

That's a different purpose than the dosing of ammonia here, which is to provide corals something they may prefer, rather than to try to keep the nitrate from being available to pests.

 

[BrokenReefer]

I do apologize if this was already stated/asked/answered:

What is the risk in dosing too much solution at once? let's say a particular individual with two small children who are very active, always running and playing, also very distracting, uses TABLESPOON instead of TEASPOON and possibly adds 3 to a 550ml mixture....

I'm curious on what I did besides the obvious which killed nearly all my fish. Did I spike Ammonia and now I'm back in a "cycle" state; did I crater pH (can't tell since my pH probe went belly up on me two weeks ago, ordered the calibration fluid to make sure that was all it is)? I'm curious what the ultimate risk is with dosing Ammonium Bicarbonate.