Do you actually QT or treat without symptoms?

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay I know people feel the blackworms offered for sale in the hobby are the same as tubifex but Blackworms are much fatter and a different color and have different "mannerisms" and grow in different places. Tubifex are typically found in drainage ditches and horse feeding troughs while blackworms in the hobby are grown in California commercially in pools.

I don't know if the scientific name is the same but if it is, the people who name such things need to call the school they went to and see if they can get their money back as blackworms in this hobby and tubifex are not the same at all. Just my opinion of course as always.

I can't get blackworms here so I grow whiteworms which live in damp soil and live for 5 days in saltwater. I actually tried it.

If Mycobacteria is found in blackworms it doesn't seem to affect my fish which have been fed with them for upwards of 60 years. No problems yet but maybe because my fish seem to be immune to just about everything they are also immune to blackworm diseases.

In this instance, the Mycobacterium was confirmed as coming from the California blackworms, both in the worms, as well as the dead fish themselves through culturing (something that is rarely done because Myco grows so slowly and labs don't take the time).

True tubifex worms are more of an east coast thing, collected locally, When most people say "tubifex", it is more often blackworms, Lumbriculus variegatus and not the red worm, Tubifex tubifex.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Does freeze dried maintain all the good qualities without the risk?

Good question - IDK for sure. I believe it is a low temperature process, so in that regard, heat sensitive materials should not be damaged....

 

[Paul B]

Jay, I'm not sure what Mycobacterium is as I'm an electrician and not a doctor or ichthyologist but whatever it is, I think my fish are immune to it.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Jay, I'm not sure what Mycobacterium is as I'm an electrician and not a doctor or ichthyologist but whatever it is, I think my fish are immune to it.

No fish is "immune" to this, but there are different species and strains of it. Not all species are affected equally, the acute form (that I mentioned) is very nasty, but only affects certain species. Most marine fish that develop infections do so near the "end of life", so it is considered an old age disease. In fact, the symptoms are so varied, that it goes unnoticed, or at least attributed to the fish being "old", unless you culture for it.

 

[Paul B]

OK Jay, if you say so. But my fishes immunity seems to not be affected by it and I have added a lot of fish in the last 5 decades.

 

[nereefpat]

I'm following this thread, but I've probably missed a few posts.

There are a lot of people in the "quarantine, but not medicate unless I see something" philosophy. Everyone has their own risk tolerance that they have to weight out. But, for anyone doing "observation only", you would need to go much longer than a couple weeks. You will know pretty soon if your new fish has velvet. Ich, for example, has a much longer life cycle and has a cyst phase lasting as long as 45-60 days depending on temperature.

 

[exnisstech]

I allways pre treat fish sick or not..Ever since I added a fish that looked fine for 4 days at the fish store, to my tank..Then had an outbreak of velvet. Killing fish I had for 15 years..only a few survived.

Did you happen test the salinity of the water the fish were kept in at the store? I'm curious because I had the same thing happen to me. The fish I added came from a tank with sg of 1.015. I didn't know it when I made the purchase. I will no longer buy fish from a tank that does not also have inverts or coral in it. The stores say the low salinity prevents disease but I am of the oppinion it suppresses it but that's JMO no facts to back it up.

 

[Jekyl]

Did you happen test the salinity of the water the fish were kept in at the store? I'm curious because I had the same thing happen to me. The fish I added came from a tank with sg of 1.015. I didn't know it when I made the purchase. I will no longer buy fish from a tank that does not also have inverts or coral in it. The stores say the low salinity prevents disease but I am of the oppinion it suppresses it but that's JMO no facts to back it up.

You would be correct. Hypo needed to treat against ich is 1.009. Lower salinity as you said keeps the disease hidden, but not actually dealt with.

My guess is that coupled with reduced salt costs makes for good business in some owners eyes.

 

[dochoot]

So, if setting up an observation, possible treatment tank, keep osmolatrity to your normal level?

 

[nereefpat]

So, if setting up an observation, possible treatment tank, keep osmolatrity to your normal level?

Best practice is to measure the salinity of the water the fish is in (at the store or the shipping bag) and match your QT to that. That way, you can just float the bag for temperature and put the fish in after 20 minutes or so.

After that, since the specific gravity in the bag is usually 1.020 or lower, I let the salinity creep up to match the display so I can transfer the fish easily after QT is done.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Did you happen test the salinity of the water the fish were kept in at the store? I'm curious because I had the same thing happen to me. The fish I added came from a tank with sg of 1.015. I didn't know it when I made the purchase. I will no longer buy fish from a tank that does not also have inverts or coral in it. The stores say the low salinity prevents disease but I am of the oppinion it suppresses it but that's JMO no facts to back it up.

So many stores use this "pseudo-hyposalinity". It does NOT cure ich or Brooklynella, just suppresses it. It actually makes Amyloodinium/velvet and Uronema risks higher. It does eliminate Neobenedenia flukes if the fish are held in it long enough.

Why is it done? It saves on salt costs and keeps some diseases at bay until the fish can be sold. It also reduces osmotic stress in the fish. Trouble is, if the customers don't handle these fish properly through acclimation, lots of fish die.

There is another type of store that maintains sub-treatment levels of copper. That is also an issue.

I've seen stores do both - ugh.....

 

[Sump Crab]

Absolutely zero QT process for me. Been doing it for 20 years! If a fish makes it past the first month it lives for years. I'd say about 10% loss of new fish in the first month, usually due to sinking stomachs and I assume internal parasites. I have to say, though, that I have no luck with tangs as they always get ich if I add one. If tangs were important to me I would definitely rec a ich free system with proper qt.

 

[exnisstech]

So many stores use this "pseudo-hyposalinity". It does NOT cure ich or Brooklynella, just suppresses it. It actually makes Amyloodinium/velvet and Uronema risks higher. It does eliminate Neobenedenia flukes if the fish are held in it long enough.

Why is it done? It saves on salt costs and keeps some diseases at bay until the fish can be sold. It also reduces osmotic stress in the fish. Trouble is, if the customers don't handle these fish properly through acclimation, lots of fish die.

There is another type of store that maintains sub-treatment levels of copper. That is also an issue.

I've seen stores do both - ugh.....

Thank you for confirming my suspicions about low salinity masking illness. When I have confronted the store owners they just hand out a line of BS about why they do it trying to make it sound like a good thing. My last fish purchased was in a tank that was labeled 1.020 Not great but not terrible. Got home and tested the water and it was 1.015. Now I now the store owner is a liar. He is far too intelligent to have that happen by mistake. I'm down to 2 out out 4 local stores to buy from and even one of those does run copper so I only look at fish in the tanks that have coral and or inverts.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

My last fish purchased was in a tank that was labeled 1.020 Not great but not terrible. Got home and tested the water and it was 1.015. Now I now the store owner is a liar.

Or an employee is mucking around in the systems.

When I worked at an LFS, I kept a pretty close eye on the fish and coral system ("reef" type fish went in with corals at ~1.025), but the FOWLR-type fish went into a more sterile (not microbiologically, of course) system that sometimes ran copper and sometimes didn't, and the salinity was not a top priority (water top off was manual, and was often done only when the pumps started sucking air).

The only thing more eye opening than working at an LFS was working at a restaurant; I actively block memories of both those experiences when consuming goods and services from either type of business.

 

[exnisstech]

Or an employee is mucking around in the systems.

When I worked at an LFS, I kept a pretty close eye on the fish and coral system ("reef" type fish went in with corals at ~1.025), but the FOWLR-type fish went into a more sterile (not microbiologically, of course) system that sometimes ran copper and sometimes didn't, and the salinity was not a top priority (water top off was manual, and was often done only when the pumps started sucking air).

The only thing more eye opening than working at an LFS was working at a restaurant; I actively block memories of both those experiences when consuming goods and services from either type of business.

I don't think so. It's a saltwater only store and the owner is super knowledgeable with years of experience. But he also has a bad personality and I don't think he keeps help long enough to teach them how to mix salt and he never has more than one person working. He has a permanent help wanted sign in front of the store lol.

Quick story that would be funny if it weren't so discusting. I'm not a fan of eating out. Heard too many stories. Worked with some kids once that came from a burger joint. They would flip burgers up and they would stick to the ceiling. When then fell down they tossed them on the grill. They finaly got caught when one fell down and landed on the mangers head.

 

[GARRIGA]

So many stores use this "pseudo-hyposalinity". It does NOT cure ich or Brooklynella, just suppresses it. It actually makes Amyloodinium/velvet and Uronema risks higher. It does eliminate Neobenedenia flukes if the fish are held in it long enough.

Why is it done? It saves on salt costs and keeps some diseases at bay until the fish can be sold. It also reduces osmotic stress in the fish. Trouble is, if the customers don't handle these fish properly through acclimation, lots of fish die.

There is another type of store that maintains sub-treatment levels of copper. That is also an issue.

I've seen stores do both - ugh.....

Perhaps best buy fish from tanks containing coral after having spent a month but latter might just be dreaming as a LFS isn't normally in the business of hoarding inventory. No copper or salinity concerns and potentially less concern with diseases being disguised.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Perhaps best buy fish from tanks containing coral after having spent a month but latter might just be dreaming as a LFS isn't normally in the business of hoarding inventory. No copper or salinity concerns and potentially less concern with diseases being disguised.

We have a store in my area that puts their less healthy fish in their coral trays because those conditions are “better” and will fix the fish (ugh)

 

[esquare]

Well, I previously posted that I QT and Premedicate with Copper and PraziPro as per the stickied QT Protocol but I am about to go a different route with my latest additions. I received a Yellow Watchman Goby from Biota to replace the one that went carpet surfing while I was modifying my mesh top. I also got a Lemonpeel Angelfish to help with my hair algae. I feel like medicating these 2 isn't necessary as they are captive bred from Biota so I plan on just qt'ing with observation for a month then moving them to the DT.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well, I previously posted that I QT and Premedicate with Copper and PraziPro as per the stickied QT Protocol but I am about to go a different route with my latest additions. I received a Yellow Watchman Goby from Biota to replace the one that went carpet surfing while I was modifying my mesh top. I also got a Lemonpeel Angelfish to help with my hair algae. I feel like medicating these 2 isn't necessary as they are captive bred from Biota so I plan on just qt'ing with observation for a month then moving them to the DT.

Fish direct from Biota are very safe, but if they were in a dealer's tanks at all, they can pick up a myriad of diseases from that.

 

[esquare]

Fish direct from Biota are very safe, but if they were in a dealer's tanks at all, they can pick up a myriad of diseases from that.

These came direct from Biota.