Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

[taricha]

Amphipod test....
Amphipods are tough cookies. benthic organisms have a high ammonia tolerance.
marine amphipods have been found to have a lethal concentration of ammonia (to 50% of specimens) at 96 hours of anywhere from 0.83 to 3.39 mg/L of free ammonia, NH3 (not total ammonia).


4 treatments - 100mL bottles each with amphipods. Water mixed, dosed, and pH adjusted in separate 500mL containers, then exchanged into the amphipod bottles.

bottle 1
Tank water adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 2
Tank water spiked with ammonia drops, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 3
Tank water spiked with ammonia drops and Prime in recommended amounts, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 4
Tank water with Prime only, same amount as bottle 3, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

two amphipods added to each bottle.
Ammonia levels will be increased from NH3 levels of 0, up through 0.5, 1.6, 2.7, and 4.4 ppm NH3 every 6-18 hours with the accompanying Prime additions to "detoxify" the ammonia (total ammonia levels 0, 4, 12, 20, 32ppm.) Prime additions 1x dose for each ppm total ammonia. Prime will be added so each addition of Prime can "detoxify" all the ammonia in the sample, not just the last ammonia addition, in case previous Prime doses have stopped "detoxifying".
The pH is elevated because the free ammonia needed to affect amphipods is so large, that higher pH is needed to do so with lower total ammonia.

 

[Dan_P]

and would also add that it makes sense for systems with visible algae mass to uptake decent amounts of ammonia alongside active monera, Taricha may have some data stating how plant mass that isn't readily visible as tufts or mats on the rock can still uptake large amounts of ammonia, but its harder to imagine than tanks carrying a lot of visual plant mass in place.

some tanks are very cleaned of algae, whether by chemistry or by physicality / hard to imagine those having the same uptake rates as:

(SeaBass’ before peroxide dosing picture)


and then imagine this post rip clean tank still relying primarily on plant binding vs bacterial work

If your aquarium is illuminated, there is algal biofilm all over, even if it hasn’t turned ugly. This number of photosynthetic organisms is not going to let ammonia hang around very long. Maybe, if you have an ammonia issue and don’t want to lower the pH, turn up the lights Instead.

 

[brandon429]

Surely the rate of uptake and fixation changes with available mass though. ATS folks could get the same benefit from unexported blank screens just as long as they’re submerged for a month with the light on?

 

[taricha]

I now have some results of the amphipod test that I discussed the setup for in this post:

Amphipod test....
Amphipods are tough cookies. benthic organisms have a high ammonia tolerance.
marine amphipods have been found to have a lethal concentration of ammonia (to 50% of specimens) at 96 hours of anywhere from 0.83 to 3.39 mg/L of free ammonia, NH3 (not total ammonia).


4 treatments - 100mL bottles each with amphipods. Water mixed, dosed, and pH adjusted in separate 500mL containers, then exchanged into the amphipod bottles.

bottle 1
Tank water adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 2
Tank water spiked with ammonia drops, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 3
Tank water spiked with ammonia drops and Prime in recommended amounts, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

bottle 4
Tank water with Prime only, same amount as bottle 3, adjusted to pH 8.5-8.6

two amphipods added to each bottle.
Ammonia levels will be increased from NH3 levels of 0, up through 0.5, 1.6, 2.7, and 4.4 ppm NH3 every 6-18 hours with the accompanying Prime additions to "detoxify" the ammonia (total ammonia levels 0, 4, 12, 20, 32ppm.) Prime additions 1x dose for each ppm total ammonia. Prime will be added so each addition of Prime can "detoxify" all the ammonia in the sample, not just the last ammonia addition, in case previous Prime doses have stopped "detoxifying".
The pH is elevated because the free ammonia needed to affect amphipods is so large, that higher pH is needed to do so with lower total ammonia.

First column is the time in hours, the next 4 columns are the 4 treatments - Tank water with or without ammonia and with or without Prime, second to last column is the ammonia level at that time, last column is when and how much Prime was added.

Time (hours)	Status of Amphipods				Ammonia level	Prime added
	1 - Tank Water	2 - TW+Amm	3 - TW+Amm+Prime	4 - TW+Prime
0	2 swimming	2 swimming	2 swimming	2 swimming	0.55ppm NH3, 4ppm NH3+4.	+4x Prime
6	2 swimming	2 swimming	2 swimming	2 swimming	1.6ppm NH3, 12ppm NH3+4.	+12x Prime (16x total)
7	2 swimming	2 alive, not swimming	2 alive, not swimmming	2 swimming
13	2 swimming	1 alive not swimming, 1 dead	2 alive, not swimmming	2 swimming
20	2 swimming	1 alive not swimming, 1 dead	2 dead	2 swimming
22	2 swimming	2 dead	2 dead	2 swimming

The clearly toxic effects began within an hour of moving to the second level of ammonia, so I did not go any higher.
The ammonia was clearly toxic with or without Prime added at 12x (for 12ppm ammonia). There was no detectable difference in the color of the seachem disks, or the time when the amphipods could no longer swim, or any significant difference in the time when they were dead.
In the treatments with ammonia, without Prime the two amphipods were dead at 13 and 22 hours. With Prime the amphipods were both dead at 20 hours.

The amphipods not exposed to ammonia (with or without Prime) were able to swim throughout the process and were fed to a grateful yellow watchman goby at the conclusion.

Pics at the conclusion of experiment.

(Seachem NH3 detecting disks Left to right: bottle 1- Tank Water, 2 TW + ammonia, 3 TW + ammonia + Prime, 4 TW + prime)

(left to right: bottle 1- Tank Water - swimming, 2 TW + ammonia - dead, 3 TW + ammonia + Prime - dead, 4 TW + prime - swimming)

Could the experiment be made more applicable and convincing with sensitive fish and a lower ammonia level? sure, but I have zero interest in doing that since it's clear to me that Prime doesn't detoxify ammonia and it would just end with dead fish.

 

[brandon429]

that is absolutely helpful and clear data I can't thank you enough for compiling the work and chart. you're giving us bioindicator species/upper limits data that can be used in reef tank troubleshooting. charting out what's had to be guessed at prior.

 

[Righteous]

The amphipods not exposed to ammonia (with or without Prime) were able to swim throughout the process and were fed to a grateful yellow watchman goby at the conclusion.

I thought they’d get a peaceful retirement for their contribution to science! Maybe a little tuft of algae by the sea.

 

[brandon429]

it may be the second funniest thing Ive ever read but am playing cards close

 

[Treefer32]

I wish a chemist would weigh in on this. But, I thought.. I may be wrong... that Prime and Amquel turned Ammonia to Ammonium. Ammonia being toxic and ammonium not being toxic. I'ved used this on QT systems where I had an emergency in the display moved a bunch of fish (and nothing else) to the emergency tank with nothing but brand new pvc as filter media. No bacterial dosing, just dosed prime 3 times a day to neutralize the ammonia until bacteria cycles kicked in.

If I'm reading the evidence right. I cycled a tank with too many fish in it and none of the fish died to the toxic ammonia? Ammonia hit as high as 4 on badges and test kits. But there was nothing I could do because the display tank was recycling due to a massive Overdose of kalk water. I had around 10 fish in a 29 gallon with no filtration other than a hang on back filter and a bubbler and heater (had been an old freshwater tank I converted to an Emergency tank).

The fish lived in there with me dosing prime daily until the display had a massive die off and cycle. That Ammonia was off the charts. At one point I measured ammonia at 12 in the display with just live (dying rock) in it.

So, are we saying that prime does not detoxify ammonia, period? Or are we saying it renders reagents in ammonia test kits useless?


I can't explain how my fish survived in a brand new tank with ammonia over 4 ppm. This was 15 years ago when I had no knowledge of bacteria in a bottle. So, it was truly a from scratch cycle with too many fish and too large of fish.

 

[brandon429]

one addition I must make to the above in fairness: the ammonia reading was not on calibrated seneye or hach digital so its subject to the same misreads we collect for those same levels in fully cycled reefs. with restricted surface area yes I believe that load will overpush a QT so its still fine counterpoint to the utility of prime vs none



I had mentioned to Dan the other day the instance I thought prime seemed to make a difference was girlfriends huge goldfish tank she disturbed all the substrate and the fish started rolling about, total lethargy and clear poisoning due to the clouding component X

she adds about eighth of a bottle of prime, they self right in 4 mins. no testing was available at all merely visuals

 

[Malcontent]

I wish a chemist would weigh in on this. But, I thought.. I may be wrong... that Prime and Amquel turned Ammonia to Ammonium. Ammonia being toxic and ammonium not being toxic.

AmQuel's patent suggests a reaction that detoxifies ammonia. It doesn't turn it into ammonium though. Some people have said that reaction can't actually happen.

Seachem says Prime turns ammonia into an imidium/iminium salt but a lot of people think it turns it into ammonium (which I don't think is possible w/o lowering pH).

So, are we saying that prime does not detoxify ammonia, period? Or are we saying it renders reagents in ammonia test kits useless?

It doesn't detoxify ammonia, period.

 

[Azedenkae]

Just want to point out that Prime says it is only safe to dose up to 5x dosage, i.e. to detoxify 5ppm ammonia. What's to say Prime really works as well when it's 12ppm ammonia, or even if the >5x dosage of Prime is actually the killer itself?

 

[Little c big D]

Wow. You guys went elbow deep. awesome read! But what's taken this long for people to test this. Has anyone asked seachem how they validated their claim?

 

[brandon429]

There’s no reason for them to divulge private info it’ll have to be forum scrutinized

 

[Malcontent]

Just want to point out that Prime says it is only safe to dose up to 5x dosage, i.e. to detoxify 5ppm ammonia. What's to say Prime really works as well when it's 12ppm ammonia, or even if the >5x dosage of Prime is actually the killer itself?

Pathetic.

Are you a paid Seachem shill or employee?

How would >5X Prime be toxic?

Amphipod group 1 (Prime, no ammonia) survived so it wasn't the Prime that killed the 'pods in group 3.

If Seachem claims to detoxify 5 ppm ammonia, is that free ammonia or ammonium? Ammonium is already non-toxic so we'll give Seachem the benefit of the doubt and assume they mean 5 ppm free ammonia. Otherwise, they'd be detoxifying something that's already non-toxic...

And 1.6 ppm free ammonia is well within the 5 ppm claim by Seachem.

 

[brandon429]

Malcontent


edit your post

everybody can reflect on data as they see fit. Don’t ruin Tarichas work thread.

 

[Dan_P]

I wish a chemist would weigh in on this. But, I thought.. I may be wrong... that Prime and Amquel turned Ammonia to Ammonium. Ammonia being toxic and ammonium not being toxic. I'ved used this on QT systems where I had an emergency in the display moved a bunch of fish (and nothing else) to the emergency tank with nothing but brand new pvc as filter media. No bacterial dosing, just dosed prime 3 times a day to neutralize the ammonia until bacteria cycles kicked in.

If I'm reading the evidence right. I cycled a tank with too many fish in it and none of the fish died to the toxic ammonia? Ammonia hit as high as 4 on badges and test kits. But there was nothing I could do because the display tank was recycling due to a massive Overdose of kalk water. I had around 10 fish in a 29 gallon with no filtration other than a hang on back filter and a bubbler and heater (had been an old freshwater tank I converted to an Emergency tank).

The fish lived in there with me dosing prime daily until the display had a massive die off and cycle. That Ammonia was off the charts. At one point I measured ammonia at 12 in the display with just live (dying rock) in it.

So, are we saying that prime does not detoxify ammonia, period? Or are we saying it renders reagents in ammonia test kits useless?


I can't explain how my fish survived in a brand new tank with ammonia over 4 ppm. This was 15 years ago when I had no knowledge of bacteria in a bottle. So, it was truly a from scratch cycle with too many fish and too large of fish.

Turning free ammonia into ammonium requires lowering the pH. Lowering the pH is quite effective at decreasing the free ammonia concentration.

A product can only “detoxify” ammonia by lowering the pH or covalently bonding free ammonia. The data we shared only applies to Prime and that data demonstrates that Prime does very little if anything to lower the free ammonia concentration.

All anecdotal claims about Prime saving their fish have to be taken with a grain of salt. Also, our data was collected in saltwater. We did not investigate what Prime does in freshwater.

 

[Dan_P]

Wow. You guys went elbow deep. awesome read! But what's taken this long for people to test this. Has anyone asked seachem how they validated their claim?

They refuse to discuss the topic.

 

[brandon429]

excellent clarification.

 

[Malcontent]

They refuse to discuss the topic.

So they have no data...

 

[Righteous]

Lowering the pH is quite effective at decreasing the free ammonia concentration.

This is an important point. Freshwater tanks are also lower pH, generally 6-7.