Dosing Potassium Nitrate vs Calcium Nitrate

[DBR_Reef]

I am considering -if my other strategies fail- dosing nitrate to my tank in order to raise nitrates, and lower phosphates. There are many reasons to do this (better coral coloration, ability to move off GFO, etc), but those have been discussed elsewhere. My question is whether one form of nitrate holds any advantages over another- information that I can't seem to find discussed elsewhere, and which there don't seem to be any pier reviewed studies on either. I was specifically thinking of potassium nitrate or calcium nitrate, but maybe other options should be considered?

Perhaps dosing calcium nitrate might reduce phosphate through precipitation?

Should I consider dosing a few different sources of nitrate at the same time?

Right now I am trying to up nitrates by HEAVY feeding of low phosphate foods, as one of my worries with using any nitrate additive (and this is nothing but conjecture) is that you are adding a very specific nutrient, which may lead to a monoculture of bacteria and a lack of fauna diversity. If I can bring nitrates up using a more natural and complete nutrient source, I would prefer to do so. But I might fail at this; so I'm planning ahead. If people think there are better ways to up nitrates than dosing them directly, I'm all ears.

 

[TbyZ]

I am considering -if my other strategies fail- dosing nitrate to my tank in order to raise nitrates, and lower phosphates. There are many reasons to do this (better coral coloration, ability to move off GFO, etc), but those have been discussed elsewhere. My question is whether one form of nitrate holds any advantages over another- information that I can't seem to find discussed elsewhere, and which there don't seem to be any pier reviewed studies on either. I was specifically thinking of potassium nitrate or calcium nitrate, but maybe other options should be considered?

Perhaps dosing calcium nitrate might reduce phosphate through precipitation?

Should I consider dosing a few different sources of nitrate at the same time?

Right now I am trying to up nitrates by HEAVY feeding of low phosphate foods, as one of my worries with using any nitrate additive (and this is nothing but conjecture) is that you are adding a very specific nutrient, which may lead to a monoculture of bacteria and a lack of fauna diversity. If I can bring nitrates up using a more natural and complete nutrient source, I would prefer to do so. But I might fail at this; so I'm planning ahead. If people think there are better ways to up nitrates than dosing them directly, I'm all ears.

Hi DBR; I know you are aware that carbon dosing is not as effective at removing PO4 as it is removing NO3. I don't really understand how increasing NO3 will reduce PO4 in your case?

You are also concerned about possible "monoculture of bacteria" and a lack of fauna diversity from dosing a "very specific nutrient".
Feldman showed that only some bacteria are suspseptable to skimming & that dosing - skimming can lead to monoculture of bacteria.

Do you, or have you tried GFO or some other method of removing PO4?

 

[Alfrareef]

As per the thread title, I recall that it could be a challenge to remove the accumulated Potassium Nitrate from the system. But I've never used it or study that matter.

 

[DBR_Reef]

Hi DBR; I know you are aware that carbon dosing is not as effective at removing PO4 as it is removing NO3. I don't really understand how increasing NO3 will reduce PO4 in your case?

You are also concerned about possible "monoculture of bacteria" and a lack of fauna diversity from dosing a "very specific nutrient".
Feldman showed that only some bacteria are suspseptable to skimming & that dosing - skimming can lead to monoculture of bacteria.

Do you, or have you tried GFO or some other method of removing PO4?

By upping my nitrates I would be able to reduce phosphate biologically. Right now my nitrates are far below where I want them and I am not able to dose any carbon- i.e. Nitrate is the limiting nutrient.

I currently use gfo, and have my phosphate where I want it, however I am always looking for more elegant solutions to my problems, and changing out a couple tablespoons of gfo every 2 weeks is a pain and leads to small fluctuations in nutrient levels.

I have always been under the impression (I have no data or research to back this up) that carbon would be available to almost all organisms in the forms we dose, and therefore dosing carbon does not benefit a small selection of bacteria, rather all those limited by carbon availability. With nitrates I am not quite so sure this would be the case. Just to hedge my bets with carbon I use a mixture of carbon sources, and am considering doing the same with nitrates

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You are also concerned about possible "monoculture of bacteria" and a lack of fauna diversity from dosing a "very specific nutrient".
Feldman showed that only some bacteria are suspseptable to skimming & that dosing - skimming can lead to monoculture of bacteria.

I don't believe that happens, nor can I see a reason to be concerned if it did.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I am considering -if my other strategies fail- dosing nitrate to my tank in order to raise nitrates, and lower phosphates. There are many reasons to do this (better coral coloration, ability to move off GFO, etc), but those have been discussed elsewhere. My question is whether one form of nitrate holds any advantages over another- information that I can't seem to find discussed elsewhere, and which there don't seem to be any pier reviewed studies on either. I was specifically thinking of potassium nitrate or calcium nitrate, but maybe other options should be considered?

Perhaps dosing calcium nitrate might reduce phosphate through precipitation?

Should I consider dosing a few different sources of nitrate at the same time?

Right now I am trying to up nitrates by HEAVY feeding of low phosphate foods, as one of my worries with using any nitrate additive (and this is nothing but conjecture) is that you are adding a very specific nutrient, which may lead to a monoculture of bacteria and a lack of fauna diversity. If I can bring nitrates up using a more natural and complete nutrient source, I would prefer to do so. But I might fail at this; so I'm planning ahead. If people think there are better ways to up nitrates than dosing them directly, I'm all ears.

Calcium nitrate addition will not have any effect on phosphate.

I'd actually prefer sodium nitrate slightly as it messes with ionic ratios less, but all are probably OK unless you dose a lot.

 

[TbyZ]

I don't believe that happens, nor can I see a reason to be concerned if it did.

Don't believe dosing nitrate will cause " monoculture of bacteria"?

 

[Griff]

Any negative affects of potassium nitrate specifically under water creations nitrate balancer

 

[DBR_Reef]

Calcium nitrate addition will not have any effect on phosphate.

I'd actually prefer sodium nitrate slightly as it messes with ionic ratios less, but all are probably OK unless you dose a lot.

Do you mean because there are way more sodium ions in sw compared to calcium or potassium ions?

Any reason you can think of to use more than one? Or just use the sodium nitrate

 

[DBR_Reef]

Any negative affects of potassium nitrate specifically under water creations nitrate balancer

What? Can you clarify?

 

[marke]

I dose a blend of potassium, sodium, and calcium nitrate. I find zero nitrates cause my sps to go pale from lack of food----nitrate. If I have zero nitrates I am not only starving my corals, I am starving my bacteria of food. if no food the bacteria colony or quantity decreases. If we add nitrates our corals and bacteria eat and grow. Bacteria growth leads to a decrease in phosphates, and significantly more nitrates ( which we can add back). We all may have monoculture of bacteria? The strongest dominates. Can we test for diversity of bacteria? Or are we speculating? Not sure what an underwater creations balancer is? The addition of nitrate to the appropriate system has been proven to work. Question is who makes the best nitrate product? Is stump stuff the right thing?

 

[DBR_Reef]

I dose a blend of potassium, sodium, and calcium nitrate. I find zero nitrates cause my sps to go pale from lack of food----nitrate. If I have zero nitrates I am not only starving my corals, I am starving my bacteria of food. if no food the bacteria colony or quantity decreases. If we add nitrates our corals and bacteria eat and grow. Bacteria growth leads to a decrease in phosphates, and significantly more nitrates ( which we can add back). We all may have monoculture of bacteria? The strongest dominates. Can we test for diversity of bacteria? Or are we speculating? Not sure what an underwater creations balancer is? The addition of nitrate to the appropriate system has been proven to work. Question is who makes the best nitrate product? Is stump stuff the right thing?

So you dose a mixture- any reasoning behind that?

 

[TbyZ]

The addition of nitrate to the appropriate system has been proven to work.

Has it?

Effects of Nitrate
Ferrier-Pagés et al. (2001) found nitrate additions (if combined with elevated iron concentrations) decreased coral growth rates by 34% over a 3-week period in the stony coral Stylophora pistillata while increasing cell-specific density of the algae. Recall that Atkinson and Bingman (1999) found elevated levels of iron in all artificial sea salts tested. Marubini and Davies (1996) reported that exposure to elevated nitrate concentrations decreased calcification rates by as much as 50% in the Caribbean stony corals Porites porites and Montastrea annularis. However, Taylor (1978) found that nitrate additions did not stimulate photosynthesis, production of metabolites by zooxanthellae, nor calcification rates of the Atlantic stony coral Acropora cervicornis.

 

[Mike220]

Which one can dose to get more nitrate .
Thanks

 

[marke]

Has it?

Effects of Nitrate
Ferrier-Pagés et al. (2001) found nitrate additions (if combined with elevated iron concentrations) decreased coral growth rates by 34% over a 3-week period in the stony coral Stylophora pistillata while increasing cell-specific density of the algae. Recall that Atkinson and Bingman (1999) found elevated levels of iron in all artificial sea salts tested. Marubini and Davies (1996) reported that exposure to elevated nitrate concentrations decreased calcification rates by as much as 50% in the Caribbean stony corals Porites porites and Montastrea annularis. However, Taylor (1978) found that nitrate additions did not stimulate photosynthesis, production of metabolites by zooxanthellae, nor calcification rates of the Atlantic stony coral Acropora cervicornis.

I see the articles mentioned. First one is tied to iron concentration elevations. Iron can be a toxic trace metal at levels above NSW. The second article was written in 1996. Over 20 years ago when the thinking was nitrates were the big evil. The actual research is being done today by my sps growers like myself. The key is its not about excessive additions of nitrates. Its about nitrates going to zero and becoming a limited nutrient which pales sps. Raising no3 to a detectable level does help sps. Raising them to 20ppm may be excessive as mentioned in the articles. Corals cannot grow on photosynthesis alone. They need nitrate and po4. Problem is if we feed fish food to increase nutrients we end up increasing po4 faster than no3. As we reduce po4 to increase calcification (Yes elevated po4 can inhibit coral growth), we end up reducing no3 17 times faster (Redfield) to the point that we take no3 to zero. Zero is no good----so add no3 in a way that does not increase po4 as food does.

As to why a blended product. All 3 potassium,sodium,calcium nitrates get the job done. Problem comes when your dosing a significant amount daily. or you dont do water changes. Then the possibility of raising either potasssium or sodium or calcium to an unwanted level too fast can occur. A blend avoids this issue. If you dose 2ml in a 200 gal tank once a week you wont have a problem with using one of the three. Just check for purity.

 

[DBR_Reef]

I see the articles mentioned. First one is tied to iron concentration elevations. Iron can be a toxic trace metal at levels above NSW. The second article was written in 1996. Over 20 years ago when the thinking was nitrates were the big evil. The actual research is being done today by my sps growers like myself. The key is its not about excessive additions of nitrates. Its about nitrates going to zero and becoming a limited nutrient which pales sps. Raising no3 to a detectable level does help sps. Raising them to 20ppm may be excessive as mentioned in the articles. Corals cannot grow on photosynthesis alone. They need nitrate and po4. Problem is if we feed fish food to increase nutrients we end up increasing po4 faster than no3. As we reduce po4 to increase calcification (Yes elevated po4 can inhibit coral growth), we end up reducing no3 17 times faster (Redfield) to the point that we take no3 to zero. Zero is no good----so add no3 in a way that does not increase po4 as food does.

As to why a blended product. All 3 potassium,sodium,calcium nitrates get the job done. Problem comes when your dosing a significant amount daily. or you dont do water changes. Then the possibility of raising either potasssium or sodium or calcium to an unwanted level too fast can occur. A blend avoids this issue. If you dose 2ml in a 200 gal tank once a week you wont have a problem with using one of the three. Just check for purity.

Thanks for the explanation on your dosing. As for the 1996 article, I think it is actually a very good one and one that backs much of what we see. but I will respond to the poster- btw micromolarity is not the same as ppm- you need to multiply by the atomic weight, and that will get you ppb

 

[DBR_Reef]

Has it?

Effects of Nitrate
Ferrier-Pagés et al. (2001) found nitrate additions (if combined with elevated iron concentrations) decreased coral growth rates by 34% over a 3-week period in the stony coral Stylophora pistillata while increasing cell-specific density of the algae. Recall that Atkinson and Bingman (1999) found elevated levels of iron in all artificial sea salts tested. Marubini and Davies (1996) reported that exposure to elevated nitrate concentrations decreased calcification rates by as much as 50% in the Caribbean stony corals Porites porites and Montastrea annularis. However, Taylor (1978) found that nitrate additions did not stimulate photosynthesis, production of metabolites by zooxanthellae, nor calcification rates of the Atlantic stony coral Acropora cervicornis.

I can't find the last article, and I have yet to read the 2001 article, but I liked the 1996 article. I don't think it presents a reason not to dose nitrates though- I think it just corroborates what we commonly observe. They saw increased zooxanthellae populations with increased nitrates- this would correlate to our increased coloration with slightly elevated nitrates, and complaints of pale colors when nitrates are zero. They also showed a decrease of approximately 50% in calcification rates with nitrate addition (they tested adding nitrates to natural sea water at concentrations of 0, .062, .31, and 1.24 ppm), but these calcification rates dropped differently with different corals, some dropping between 0-.062 ppm and other dropping between 0-.31 ppm. Many hobbyist are going to struggle to get below these values, and above them there did not appear to be a significant effect on calcification rates, so I'm not sure shooting for sub .062 ppm nitrates is reasonable. But this data does validate the growth vs color trade off- I always choose color- means I have to do less trimming

It has also been shown that phosphates reduce calcification rates, so it is possible that by dosing nitrates, as long as they are metabolized quickly, may increase calcification rates.

 

[DBR_Reef]

Has it?

Effects of Nitrate
Ferrier-Pagés et al. (2001) found nitrate additions (if combined with elevated iron concentrations) decreased coral growth rates by 34% over a 3-week period in the stony coral Stylophora pistillata while increasing cell-specific density of the algae.

FYI incase anyone reads this without reading the article- algal density in this case is in reference to symbiotic populations- basically more zooxanthellae. Having read the 2001 article, the testing was done at .3ppb Fe, which based on the triton test I have seen, does not correlate with our tanks. But the N dosing shows similar results to the 1996 study. Basically read the 1996 study, as it is more applicable and better written.

 

[hart24601]

I don't believe that happens, nor can I see a reason to be concerned if it did.

+1

In a previous life I was a microbiologist and worked a lot with microbial community profiles. To really see population changes we would need to look at several things and areas, such as water column, and various surfaces and inside porous surfaces with coring. After taking samples extracting DNA, PCR of 16s and next gen sequencing followed with bioinformatics we could see the bacterial populations. Add RNAseq to that and could see what genes are being activated. This is expensive right now but at some point it should drop to where it's affordable enough to test some systems. The big expense is the bioinformatics work and time.

Anywho working in this area I would expect to see wild differences between every tank, and while there would be some before/after changes with carbon dosing I sure wouldn't expect to see a monoculture exactly as microbial communities are extraordinary complex with bacteria that feed off bacteria and so forth even if they couldn't directly use the carbon they might consume products other organisms produce.

Even if there is a large change and a single species that dominates the tank we don't know if that is bad or good or doesn't matter. With how many successful tanks run carbon dosing for years now I would say it's a fair inference that if it does occur it's neutral to positive. No doubt our tanks lack the microbial diversity of the ocean, however our tanks are boxes of water sitting in our house, it's a false assumption to think that if something is seen in the ocean it must be good for our tanks. Sure that can be the case, but it can also be quite the opposite as well.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Do you mean because there are way more sodium ions in sw compared to calcium or potassium ions?

Any reason you can think of to use more than one? Or just use the sodium nitrate

Yes, that's the reason, and no, just sodium. The only other things that has a mixture rational is a proportional mix of sodium, magnesium, calcium, potassium, etc. Basically all the ions in order of concentration. But it is by far mostly sodium.