Dr. Tim & Mark Callahan video says refugiums / ATS don't work well for nutrient export

[Muffin87]

Key points:

• Refugiums and algae turf scrubbers can't run nutrients low enough to run an ultra low nutrient system;
• They make a system phosphate-limited, so you're always going to have residual nitrate;
• Algal exudates tint the water yellow and require protein skimming;
• Quote from 5:17: "[a refugium] isn't gonna get that much done for you in terms of nutrient export".

Any comments or insights?

I thought the claims were a bit bold since many run tanks using only a refugium or even the Triton method with no water changes.

 

[Porpoise Hork]

Interesting..

I have always viewed refugiums and scrubbers as just a part of the nutrient export for my tank. It also provides a breeding ground for micro fauna, but still rely on mechanical filtration, wet skimming, water changes and bacterial methods for controlling nutrient levels.

 

[BAMatter]

“We’ve debunked the myth…” I feel that was a very bold claim for a 4 min video.

 

[Sdot]

Good video, but as many will tell you... there are 1k ways to do the same thing in this hobby. I use my "fuge" to dial in limited nutrient control. What this means is i dose both nitrate and phos in my tank, if one gets too high (never been an issue btw), i turn off dosing and allow the corals/Algae and fuge to take care it.... it allows me to dial in levels vs. relying on chemicals to reduce them.... just one reefers opinion however...

 

[DavidinGA]

Guess I'm just doing it wrong then, over here with no skimmer, minimal water changes, and one worthless algae scrubber apparently not even working...how have I kept anything alive since 1998?

 

[ColoredRock]

Not going to go PC .. “she was wise, subtle, and knew more than one way to skin a cat”.. Intrreasting watch .. but felt a little infocmercial to me.

 

[RyonFly]

While I don't think a fuge will get you to zero without other factors in the mix, I do believe you can control nutrients pretty well with one in combination with other methods. I believe BRS did a pretty good investigates on balancing the export of nutrients using macro and a tunable fuge light, running more or less, removing some of the macro when needed.
I'm having luck with finding the right balance between everything. For example, I couldn't keep nitrates up despite feeding multiple times a day, so no fuge yet though I do want one, but had to dose nitrates, which brought my Po4 to a nice balance. I leave my socks in a little longer to help keep nutrients up as well. Feed more frozen LRS than pellets which I believe has less PO4 impact than dry food does. This will probably change when I start to add more fish, my methods will change with it. I think it's all about finding the right balance and keeping up with the changes as a tank matures. I got the "Can't wait to sell you some bacteria" vibe from the video. I do like the heavy in, heavy out idea. Can't believe I used to starve my fish for the sake of nutrients

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

• Refugiums and algae turf scrubbers can't run nutrients low enough to run an ultra low nutrient system;
• They make a system phosphate-limited, so you're always going to have residual nitrate;
• Algal exudates tint the water yellow and require protein skimming;
• Quote from 5:17: "[a refugium] isn't gonna get that much done for you in terms of nutrient export".

The first may be true. It also seems good to not be able to. lol

The second seems unlikely to me. Never happened in my tank, and I also used GFO.

The third may be true, or least least requiring some way to bind yellowing compounds.

The last is an opinion as to what is useful or not. Some folks need to dose N and P, so even a little might be too much, not too little. lol

 

[Captain Redbeard]

It’s also probably worth nothing they did say it does remove phos/nit from the water, but doesn’t “export”. The key part of that is you removing algae routinely to truly “export” from the system.
I don’t think anyone would argue that algaes consume nitrates and phosphates, that’s well known fact. They’re playing a bit of semantics at the beginning which is rather annoying and could potentially be unhelpful to people coming into the hobby.

 

[Labridaedicted]

It's a *part* of my nutrient export. Along with skimming, gfo, and water changes.

I'm not a fan of ULN myself, anyways. Not a fan of starving my reef. Sure my corals are a little browner/greener than some consider ideal, but they grow well and look good.

 

[fish farmer]

It’s also probably worth nothing they did say it does remove phos/nit from the water, but doesn’t “export”. The key part of that is you removing algae routinely to truly “export” from the system.
I don’t think anyone would argue that algaes consume nitrates and phosphates, that’s well known fact. They’re playing a bit of semantics at the beginning which is rather annoying and could potentially be unhelpful to people coming into the hobby.

That was take as well....algae BAD it will rot in your tank and release those nutrients, skimmer GOOD it will remove those things....well you have to export the crap out of the skimmer cup as well .

FWIW I had a major GHA infestation in a 29 gallon tank with sump, very high N and P. I had laxed in routine WC's (those are supposed to be useless for nutrient control as well depending on who you talk to).

I took my tank back with WC's with manual GHA removal, skimmer and a SMALL chaeto refugium like about 1/3rd of a 20 high lit with a 9 watt grow bulb. I can't say it was just the refugium that turned my tank around, but got my N and P to drop in several months and currently have when I test with salifert and hanna almost zero N and P and I feed a lot more than I did when I was battling GHA.

 

[Sean Clark]

Here is my take away... Not that anyone asked for it.
Everything is a factor is scale, stocking, input and output.
Broad brushes do not paint intricate pictures
If I were selling bacteria I would also endorse this perceptive.

Personally I was disappointed by the overall message that this video portrayed.

 

[Lost in the Sauce]

I don't feel like there is anything new or crazy set here. I believe It's pretty well known that you need to harvest your macros in order to complete removing the nutrient from your system. That's nothing new.

I also don't know anybody who tries and fails to maintain an ultra low level with only a turf scrubber or algae?. . It's always Part of multi-stage of nutrient export.

 

[Spare time]

Tell that to my 0 water change refugium only system that consumes far more nitrate (or nitrogen) than phosphate.

While I like a lot of Dr Tim's works, he expertise is in certain species of marine bacteria, so his statements outside of that are not necessarily something of high value. He has repeatedly said that the issue with macro algae is that you need to harvest it. My response to that is "well no sheets." That's like saying the issue with skimmers is that they only work if you plug them in and empty the cup.

 

[youcallmenny1]

Good thing I don't want an ULNS because it's never worked for me. Furthermore: lol.

 

[Spare time]

Tell that to my 0 water change refugium only system that consumes far more nitrate (or nitrogen) than phosphate.

While I like a lot of Dr Tim's works, he expertise is in certain species of marine bacteria, so his statements outside of that are not necessarily something of high value. He has repeatedly said that the issue with macro algae is that you need to harvest it. My response to that is "well no sheets." That's like saying the issue with skimmers is that they only work if you plug them in and empty the cup.

As a follow up, I find that a common issue with experts is that, when they achieve a certain status on their field, they tend to be less "cautious" with their statements and begin to reach beyond what they are qualified to talk about. I want to add this as a caution as this is a big issue imo with the scientific community as people give too much faith into a single person within a field to the point where they achieve a guru like status. I highly respect his knowledge on bacteria, particularly on the cycling process, but ONLY in cycling bacteria. Anything beyond that and the immediate co-topics are fair game.

 

[Dan_P]

Key points:

• Refugiums and algae turf scrubbers can't run nutrients low enough to run an ultra low nutrient system;
• They make a system phosphate-limited, so you're always going to have residual nitrate;
• Algal exudates tint the water yellow and require protein skimming;
• Quote from 5:17: "[a refugium] isn't gonna get that much done for you in terms of nutrient export".

Any comments or insights?

I thought the claims were a bit bold since many run tanks using only a refugium or even the Triton method with no water changes.

Key points:

• Refugiums and algae turf scrubbers can't run nutrients low enough to run an ultra low nutrient system;
• They make a system phosphate-limited, so you're always going to have residual nitrate;
• Algal exudates tint the water yellow and require protein skimming;
• Quote from 5:17: "[a refugium] isn't gonna get that much done for you in terms of nutrient export".

Any comments or insights?

I thought the claims were a bit bold since many run tanks using only a refugium or even the Triton method with no water changes.

The first point is a straw man. Who said algae scrubber’s purpose was to support a ULN system? No one.

The rest of the points in the video could be valid to a degree but are mostly misleading in the way the are presented. This video seems like a set up to push bacteria. Pretty obvious actually.

 

[GrizFyrFyter]

My 29g biocube with 5 fish, fed pellets and frozen twice a day and corals fed twice a week. 5 gal water change once every two weeks. Salifert test show 0.5ppm nitrates and 0.01ppm phosphates. Chaeto and rock rubble are my only source of filtration.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong.

 

[GrizFyrFyter]

The first point is a straw man. Who said algae scrubber’s purpose was to support a ULN system? No one.

The rest of the points in the video could be valid to a degree but are mostly misleading in the way the are presented. This video seems like a set up to push bacteria. Pretty obvious actually.

From the same guy promoting the new Reef Delete and subtly shows that it didn't actually work. Shocker....

 

[flashsmith]

Well, I guess I'll just throw all 3 of my tanks out on the curb and start over because someone told me I wasn't doing it right..