Experiment: Trace Element Limitation in Reef Tank?

[Jose Mayo]

You may be able to come up with some interesting results by following this path of "consumption imbalance", but they can be difficult to observe. Most often, when a macroorganism suffers from limitation of an essential nutrient, what occur are developmental delays and some "deficiency diseases", but not necessarily rapid death. For microscopic beings, if a limiting factor causes some to die, their bodies will supply nutrients to the others.

However, this line of thinking is a big topic and if well designed and carried out, can lead to breakthroughs important to the hobby.

Congratulations.

 

[taricha]

Thanks for kind words.
Any recommendations for a NO3 test kit under $100? I'm starting to doubt if I can distinguish the shades of pink for anything between 5 & 20 with red sea. They may all just look like 10 to my eye.

Or maybe I'll make a solution and dilute it to of 5,7,10,15,20 and try to calibrate my eyeballs.
I hope that sounds as nuts as it felt to write.

 

[Flexin]

Thanks for the response and link Randy. It’s appreciated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You're welcome.

Happy Reefing.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Thanks for kind words.
Any recommendations for a NO3 test kit under $100? I'm starting to doubt if I can distinguish the shades of pink for anything between 5 & 20 with red sea. They may all just look like 10 to my eye.

Or maybe I'll make a solution and dilute it to of 5,7,10,15,20 and try to calibrate my eyeballs.
I hope that sounds as nuts as it felt to write.

You could try using a colormeter. I have been meaning to get one of these https://iorodeo.com/products/educational-colorimeter-kit

They have some documentation online about using these with off the shelf test kits http://colorimeter-wiki.iorodeo.com/ (see the Aquarium section)

That would have to be easier than trying to distinguish the colours by sight.

Dennis

 

[Hans-Werner]

Iodine deficiency can cause bad opening of gorgonians like Bryareum and maybe others. Iodine depletion is extremly rapid.

Dosing trace metals like iron and manganese can at least lower concentrations of nitrate and phosphate and this is a clear sign that it seems to stimulate some growth also in the absence of hair algae and macro algae. Growth of micro algae on glasses may be stimulated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Iodine deficiency can cause bad opening of gorgonians like Bryareum and maybe others. Iodine depletion is extremly rapid.

Dosing trace metals like iron and manganese can at least lower concentrations of nitrate and phosphate and this is a clear sign that it seems to stimulate some growth also in the absence of hair algae and macro algae. Growth of micro algae on glasses may be stimulated.

While I generally don't accept many things that people ascribe to iodine dosing, I certainly agree that gorgonia have importnat uses for it,a nd if I kept gorgonia, I'd certainly dose iodine.

Here's a copy and paste from an article of mine:

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/3/chemistry

Who Uses Iodine: Gorgonia And Antipatharian Corals (Black Coral)
Another set of creatures of the deep that use iodine are certain gorgonia, such as Plexaura flexuosa.42 They have 3,5-diiodotyrosine in their bodies, to the tune of 0.1 to 2.6% of the total dry weight as iodine. This iodoamino acid is presumably incorporated into proteins in the skeleton (stem), but the benefit is unclear. Again, it may be largely an antipredatory effect that is desired. The iodine incorporation in gorgonia seems to increase with age.43,44 The proteins of many different gorgonia species contain substantial iodine: Eunicella otenocalloides6.5-8.9% by weight%, Gorgonia verrucosa 4.2-9.0, G. lamarcki 3.3-6.8, G. scirpearia 0.4-0.6, Rhipidigorgia flabellum 0.6-1.1, Euplexora maghrebensis 0.19-0.23, and Plexaura kukenthali 1.9-2.2.44 It has also been demonstrated that at least one gorgonia (E. verrucosa) takes up iodine in the form of inorganic iodine from the water column.45

One study showed that the organoiodine compound thyroxine, and some related compounds, are localized to certain parts of the gorgonia L. virgulata.46 Most interestingly, one of the places it is localized to are scleroblasts (spicule-forming cells) and on the spicules themselves. Further, the addition of thyroxine to these cells impacted the uptake of calcium, and it is suggested that the thyroxine functions in spicule formation.

The antipatharian corals (the black corals) also seem to incorporate a lot of iodine. The basal regions of these corals are especially loaded with iodine, with more than 23% iodine by dry weight recorded in two species.43, 45 Again, the specific purpose is not known.

 

[Flexin]

I struggle with someone making a statement that says “this is a clear sign that it seems to stimulate some growth...”....

 

[CherBear811]

Interesting thread. I recently decided to loosely test out the relationship of pH on calcification. I used kalk to raise my pH range from 7.8-8.1 to 8.3-8.5 over a week. My ca and alk bottomed out to 300 and 5.4 dkh almost instantly. Took me two weeks to get levels restabilized. My 13.5 gallon tank now consumes 70 ppm in ca per day.

Unrelated, I also raised mg to see if it would help with bryopsis (it is working well wuth no ill effects), which I mention only to fully disclose all recent changes.

I use the red sea colors system now and brightwell koralle vm.

PH was certainly a limiting factor for my tank. Im unsure of other possible factors.

 

[taricha]

Any recommendations for a NO3 test kit under $100? I'm starting to doubt if I can distinguish the shades of pink for anything between 5 & 20 with red sea. They may all just look like 10 to my eye.

You could try using a colormeter.

I think I accidentally kinda used my phone like one. I spent too long trial and erroring with this, but I like the result. Short version is, Phone camera -> photoshop color analysis -> graphing/statistical software -> smashing together of the results for R G and B with some ugly math and here we go:
Stock NO3 solutions I tried to mixed to 5, 10, 15, 20, and 40 ppm...
I photo test them and get 5.27, 8.78, 14.4, 19.4, and 37.4 ppm respectively
I'll take it.
Today's color of pink calculates to 12.9

 

[rosshamsandwich]

I think it depends on your other husbandry techniques, but in my system, even with 1% daily water changes and good feedings, some were depleted.

I think trace element dosing (and removal) is the next big frontier in reef chemistry. What to add and how much, and what might already be in excess, is somewhat complicated to know and will vary tank to tank.

Here', for example, are some results I found for my system:

My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley
http://www.reefedition.com/my-triton-testing-results-by-randy-holmes-farley/

Molybdenum (Mo). Molybdenum is low, and if that is true, it’s an interesting and potentially important result. I don’t typically add any trace elements. I may consider adding some molybdenum as it is biologically important.

Vanadium (V). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of vanadium (1.8 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.9 µg/L. Still, detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing.

Zinc (Zn). The zinc is about spot on, so there’s not much to say about it.

Manganese (Mn). Triton can just barely detect the natural level of manganese (0.17 µg/L) since their LOD is 0.12 µg/L. Detecting none suggests it may be depleted, and is another possibility for dosing, but I have less confidence that this one is really seriously depleted since it is so close to the LOD. But Mn is biologically important and I will consider it.

this so valuable information

 

[Hans-Werner]

This iodoamino acid is presumably incorporated into proteins in the skeleton (stem), but the benefit is unclear. Again, it may be largely an antipredatory effect that is desired.

Iodine incorporation is hardening the proteins that make up the skeleton just like in crustaceans or sponges.

 

[Ardeus]

How about once or twice a year performing a quick 80-90% water change (leaving just enough water to cover the highest fish back), making sure that just the temperature and salinity are the same?

 

[Hans-Werner]

If you compare the suggestions for iodine dosage of Sprung and Delbeek or Fossa and Nilsen in theory the complete iodine of a tank is consumed in just a few weeks.

 

[Ardeus]

I know that iodine is aggressively depleted in most tanks, but there are all the other elements that may not be depleted as quickly.

For me the 3 choices are:

- Just maintain the big 3 while maintaining a steady regimen of small water changes and settle for the stability of all the other elements, even if at values close to zero;

- Give 1 or 2 bumps per year by making near total water changes;

- Become dependent on ICP tests and supplementation.

 

[Hans-Werner]

There are at least two other elements that are aggressively depleted, iron and manganese. The iron incorporation into the skeletons of scleractinia compared to the "natural concentration"(?) is similarly high as the iodine incorporation in gorgonians and sponges. Also manganese is depleted very fast, most likely by bacteria and other organisms. In tanks with regular water changes usually iron is replaced by high concentrations in most salts.

One problem is that we do not know the concentrations of for example manganese in coral reefs. The manganese concentration in the oceans is very variable with sinking concentrations from coasts to the open oceans. Nickel may be leached from volcanic rocks and ashes. So it also may be variable and this may also be true for other trace metals. My aproach is to replace trace metals in the amount in that they should be depleted by calcification.

 

[taricha]

Thanks for awesome discussion guys. Assuming I get to the phase of limitation, these are the top candidates I had been thinking of for micro-nutrients to add back and see if growth/consumption resumes.
Iron
Vit B12 / Cobalt
Iodine
Amino acids (can this become scarce, or can everyone in a reef make their own AAs?)

Based on discussions, it sounds like other good candidates are
Manganese
Molybdenum
Vanadium
Zinc

I have some idea what and who uses the first group, but no clue at all about who might need the last 4 and for what. I don't really have to know for the experiment to show results, but still.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks for awesome discussion guys. Assuming I get to the phase of limitation, these are the top candidates I had been thinking of for micro-nutrients to add back and see if growth/consumption resumes.
Iron
Vit B12 / Cobalt
Iodine
Amino acids (can this become scarce, or can everyone in a reef make their own AAs?)

Based on discussions, it sounds like other good candidates are
Manganese
Molybdenum
Vanadium
Zinc

I have some idea what and who uses the first group, but no clue at all about who might need the last 4 and for what. I don't really have to know for the experiment to show results, but still.

Every organism needs all of the actual trace elements on your list (iodine and amino acids are not trace elements), except possibly cobalt. Some may get them from solid foods, and some from the water itself (or both).

 

[Hans-Werner]

All organisms need iron, manganese, copper, zinc, chromium, cobalt, molybdenum, selenium and iodine. These are the trace elements essential to all organisms because they are needed in metabolism. Most organisms including microorganisms, plants and corals need nickel and plants and other organisms need boron as trace elements. (The science of the trace elements is called bioinorganic chemistry.) This is out of question. The question is whether you should supply them or whether there is always enough in the saltwater.

Autotrophs like plants and algae can make all amino acids themselves. Animals need to take up a limited number of amino acids with their food. In total they need 20 amino acids for the proteins but some of them they can make from other amino acids. In my eyes addition of amino acids makes not much sense since the will mainly get prey of bacteria. It makes more sense to feed filter feeders with particulate food instead.

I just see, Randy was faster than me.

 

[taricha]

I'll just point out that no one has yet suggested Strontium as a possibly depleted element that would limit growth, despite its popularity in products sold for reefers to dose. hmmm.....