Fire fish issues

[ZeroCthulthu]

Hello!

I currently have a fire fish that is either swimming vertically (nose down) or on its side. It has no external symptoms (curves, lumps, etc). It is in QT tank with a blue tang, clown fish, watchman goby, and skunkback. The reason for the QT is the blue tang had velvet so I took everything out of the display tank to treat with cupramine and paraguard. This started after a water change. At first I thought it was an amonia spike to 1.0 (all other reasons normal and in range). So I changed more water out (about another 5 gal) and added Amguard. He's not really eating. Tried to give him mashed peas (after other questionable Google searches). Also tried putting kanaplex into the QT tank as well. I'm at a loss of what to do. Any suggestions?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hello!

I currently have a fire fish that is either swimming vertically (nose down) or on its side. It has no external symptoms (curves, lumps, etc). It is in QT tank with a blue tang, clown fish, watchman goby, and skunkback. The reason for the QT is the blue tang had velvet so I took everything out of the display tank to treat with cupramine and paraguard. This started after a water change. At first I thought it was an amonia spike to 1.0 (all other reasons normal and in range). So I changed more water out (about another 5 gal) and added Amguard. He's not really eating. Tried to give him mashed peas (after other questionable Google searches). Also tried putting kanaplex into the QT tank as well. I'm at a loss of what to do. Any suggestions?

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The fire fish may be moribund (actively dying). I would skip the Paraguard, and don't mix it with cupramine. Another big issue is that cupramine, when combined with reducing agents (dechlor and some ammonia removers) can release free copper which can prove toxic to the fish. Prime, made by the people who make Cupramine is definitely toxic....I would also suspect that other ammonia removers/binders, would be also.

You should try and manage the ammonia level to below 0.50 ppm. Water changes will do that, but the ammonia is just going to climb right back up in a day or so. Using bottled bacteria, or better yet, seeded filter media (non-calcium based) from your DT is best.

The mashed peas is an old idea as a digestive tonic for fancy goldfish that has gotten mistakenly extrapolated to marine fish, but it won't help.

Can you post a short video of the fish? I might be able to help ensure you have a proper diagnosis.....

Jay

 

[ZeroCthulthu]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The fire fish may be moribund (actively dying). I would skip the Paraguard, and don't mix it with cupramine. Another big issue is that cupramine, when combined with reducing agents (dechlor and some ammonia removers) can release free copper which can prove toxic to the fish. Prime, made by the people who make Cupramine is definitely toxic....I would also suspect that other ammonia removers/binders, would be also.

You should try and manage the ammonia level to below 0.50 ppm. Water changes will do that, but the ammonia is just going to climb right back up in a day or so. Using bottled bacteria, or better yet, seeded filter media (non-calcium based) from your DT is best.

The mashed peas is an old idea as a digestive tonic for fancy goldfish that has gotten mistakenly extrapolated to marine fish, but it won't help.

Can you post a short video of the fish? I might be able to help ensure you have a proper diagnosis.....

Jay

I will try and get a video if I can. I think he's just dying to, but I'm a hopeful optimist. At the point I put the Amguard in almost all the water had been changed out of the tank that had cupramine in it.

 

[ZeroCthulthu]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

The fire fish may be moribund (actively dying). I would skip the Paraguard, and don't mix it with cupramine. Another big issue is that cupramine, when combined with reducing agents (dechlor and some ammonia removers) can release free copper which can prove toxic to the fish. Prime, made by the people who make Cupramine is definitely toxic....I would also suspect that other ammonia removers/binders, would be also.

You should try and manage the ammonia level to below 0.50 ppm. Water changes will do that, but the ammonia is just going to climb right back up in a day or so. Using bottled bacteria, or better yet, seeded filter media (non-calcium based) from your DT is best.

The mashed peas is an old idea as a digestive tonic for fancy goldfish that has gotten mistakenly extrapolated to marine fish, but it won't help.

Can you post a short video of the fish? I might be able to help ensure you have a proper diagnosis.....

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

This fish appears normal however noticed in videos is the shredded tail from aggression from tankmate in Qt - Suspect is clownfish and lack of tubes for hiding
Also, I see little to no water movement in tank. With cupramine, assure you are not above .5 treatment level and you are providing Good water quality and monitoring ammonia with a reliable test kit. Also increase oxygen with an airstone/ You can over area with saran wrap to reduce overspray from air stone

 

[ZeroCthulthu]

This fish appears normal however noticed in videos is the shredded tail from aggression from tankmate in Qt - Suspect is clownfish and lack of tubes for hiding
Also, I see little to no water movement in tank. With cupramine, assure you are not above .5 treatment level and you are providing Good water quality and monitoring ammonia with a reliable test kit. Also increase oxygen with an airstone/ You can over area with saran wrap to reduce overspray from air stone

There are 3 pieces of PVC a filter and an air stone. (The tang has claimed between the filter and tank wall or the heater and tank wall). I had to turn them off for the video. I noticed the shredded tail hence the kanaplex. In the videonhe is active it's because my hand was in the tank fishing out the net that had fallen in but if you notice towards the end he rolls over on his side and that's that. The second video has been his normal pace of activity which is hanging out on his side at the top of the tank or haunting that corner nose down. He is usually an active in the middle of the tank swimmer.

 

[vetteguy53081]

There are 3 pieces of PVC a filter and an air stone. (The tang has claimed between the filter and tank wall or the heater and tank wall). I had to turn them off for the video. I noticed the shredded tail hence the kanaplex. In the videonhe is active it's because my hand was in the tank fishing out the net that had fallen in but if you notice towards the end he rolls over on his side and that's that. The second video has been his normal pace of activity which is hanging out on his side at the top of the tank or haunting that corner nose down. He is usually an active in the middle of the tank swimmer.

Kanaplex heals fin rot and this is aggression bites instead of fin rot and will heal on it own as long as its not being bit at. One trick to see what is going on as fish are on their behavior in your presence is to set your cell phone on video mode for about 40 mins and drop a little food and walk away - YOU MUST walk away as they know youre there. Often the aggressor is a jerk at feeding time.
Review the video and see who it may be with tail . Videos do not show abnormal swimming (go figure). The rolling behavior may be due to being nervous

 

[ZeroCthulthu]

Kanaplex heals fin rot and this is aggression bites instead of fin rot and will heal on it own as long as its not being bit at. One trick to see what is going on as fish are on their behavior in your presence is to set your cell phone on video mode for about 40 mins and drop a little food and walk away - YOU MUST walk away as they know youre there. Often the aggressor is a jerk at feeding time.
Review the video and see who it may be with tail . Videos do not show abnormal swimming (go figure). The rolling behavior may be due to being nervous

I'll do that. I have another tank with heater filter etc. I think I might just go buy more water and stick him in there tomorrow to keep him isolated. Give the tail time to heal and all. I'm guessing it's the skunkback. He was agressive a bit in the large DT. I might just sell him back to the store at this point.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I'll do that. I have another tank with heater filter etc. I think I might just go buy more water and stick him in there tomorrow to keep him isolated. Give the tail time to heal and all. I'm guessing it's the skunkback. He was agressive a bit in the large DT. I might just sell him back to the store at this point.

You seem to have a good plan

 

[ZeroCthulthu]

You seem to have a good plan

Thanks. I'm guessing since he's still ok after a few days it's just nerves/bullying and not illness? (oh also. He's been hiding behind the net which is why the net fell into the tank)

 

[ZeroCthulthu]

You seem to have a good plan

I took your suggestion and set up my phone when I fed them this morning. The fire fish was swimming and active again. Mostly waiting for the food to fall towards the middle/bottom. It took a bit but my suspicion was correct the skunkback chased him off a few times. Since they have about another week and a half in QT I'm going to do what I said yesterday and keep him off in the other tank. Thanks!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks - I had a different minds eye picture from your description than the video shows. The fire fish is essentially normal, but it does look a bit thin and uncomfortable - I agree that the tankmates are keeping it pinned down away from. Additional hiding places should help.

Is the fish still eating?

Jay

 

[ZeroCthulthu]

Thanks - I had a different minds eye picture from your description than the video shows. The fire fish is essentially normal, but it does look a bit thin and uncomfortable - I agree that the tankmates are keeping it pinned down away from. Additional hiding places should help.

Is the fish still eating?

Jay

I feel like it was Murphy's law. I'm trying to take a video and he's doing the opposite of what's been going on (I.e. two family members saw him and both said "oh that fish is dead" that's how inactive, floaty, and vertical he was). He is eating now and has been using the net as a personal hider. I'm moving him to a separate tank this afternoon. Thank you for your help.

 

[ZeroCthulthu]

Final update. I moved the goby (because he is so passive) and the fire fish to the secondary tank. The OG QT tank and this one are right next to each other and the way the skunkback behaved confirmed to me he was the aggressor. Next weekend they should all becoming out of QT and I will sell him back to the store in exchange for something else (we lost 2 on Easter due to illness). Other wise the fire fish is happy and swimming.

Thank you all for your help.