Glutaraldehyde and aquarium

[Dan_P]

Hi!
If you add sugar or vodka, then the bacterias get carbon source. Therefore, they begin to actively reproduce.
Glutaraldehyde is also carbon, can it feed bacteria in the smallest doses?
Once in the water, what substances does glutaraldehyde break down into?
Why does glutaraldehyde can kill infusorias, but at the same time nitrifying bacteria remain alive? Does it work selectively or are bacteria more resistant to it?
Thank you a lot!

Glutaraldehyde is a biocide. It kills stuff, but at some concentration and with the right bacteria present, it will be metabolized. Try a Google search to find more information.

 

[crazyfishmom]

I will not (and did not intend to) pour glutaraldehyde into a marine aquarium, but I want to know: is the carbon released into the water when glutaraldehyde is dissolved food for bacteria or not. And regardless of whether the answer is positive or negative, I will not use it in a reef aquarium.

Yes, technically any carbon compound can be metabolized by some bacterial strain. Aldehydes are not typically a good carbon source. Alcohols, some carbon containing acids like acetic acid (and sugars of course) tend to be much better. Hence the vodka.

 

[MiZuboov]

Interesting...Maybe a new type of bacteria is formed in aquariums with a new type of carbon (from glutaraldehyde)..?

Yes, technically any carbon compound can be metabolized by some bacterial strain. Aldehydes are not typically a good carbon source. Alcohols, some carbon containing acids like acetic acid (and sugars of course) tend to be much better. Hence the vodka.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Interesting...Maybe a new type of bacteria is formed in aquariums with a new type of carbon (from glutaraldehyde)..?

Possible…. But I’d rather not find out. I’ve run directed evolution studies on bacteria and yeast… this sounds like just that and I wouldn’t want to find out that it’s out competing beneficial bacterial populations. Bad idea in my opinion.

 

[MiZuboov]

Possible…. But I’d rather not find out. I’ve run directed evolution studies on bacteria and yeast… this sounds like just that and I wouldn’t want to find out that it’s out competing beneficial bacterial populations. Bad idea in my opinion.

Can you tell us in more detail what exactly you studied?) Very interesting!

 

[crazyfishmom]

Can you tell us in more detail what exactly you studied?) Very interesting!

This particular study involved testing of antibacterial coatings for surfaces. Trying to predict how quickly a film of plastic-like coating would have to be removed as bacteria developed mechanisms to grown on it. Very common stream kind of testing. Used for antibiotic resistance as well.

 

[MiZuboov]

This particular study involved testing of antibacterial coatings for surfaces. Trying to predict how quickly a film of plastic-like coating would have to be removed as bacteria developed mechanisms to grown on it. Very common stream kind of testing. Used for antibiotic resistance as well.

Very cool! How realistic is it to make a bacteriological seeding of aquarium water in order to find out what bacteria there are in principle (all the species that are currently in the aquarium)? What is the name of such testing? Thank you.

 

[MiZuboov]

Yes, technically any carbon compound can be metabolized by some bacterial strain. Aldehydes are not typically a good carbon source. Alcohols, some carbon containing acids like acetic acid (and sugars of course) tend to be much better. Hence the vodka.

So vinegar, vodka, sugar form a different set of bacteria in the aquarium?

 

[JoJosReef]

While I see your point, I think a 2.5% glutaraldehyde solution should not be going into an aquarium. In tissue histology applications, glutaraldehyde can be used between 0.5-3% as a final concentration. Formaldehyde, a very similar compound is also a widely used fixative between 2-4%. Would you add either to your tank????? Glutaraldehyde is a very strong crosslinker as others have mentioned leading to mutagenesis. We all run experiments in our tanks but do you want to potentially give one of your fish cancer? Again, I understand your question. Just not quite grasping the resistance to the information you’re being provided.

I think in flow cytometry I used it at 0.25% or maybe 0.025% to fix parasites in red blood cells. It is very potent. I oreferred it to formaldehyde. Now I have to go and dig up those old papers...

To OP, nothing wrong with asking questions, but lets preface it with "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME" and posit this as a theoretical application. I do not think glutaraldehyde is a best option for carbon dosing given the risks of killing many things in your tank and causing potential health problems in your macrofauna. I am happy to be wrong, though, if someone with real data and chemistry are willing to share.

 

[crazyfishmom]

I think in flow cytometry I used it at 0.25% or maybe 0.025% to fix parasites in red blood cells. It is very potent. I oreferred it to formaldehyde. Now I have to go and dig up those old papers...

To OP, nothing wrong with asking questions, but lets preface it with "DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME" and posit this as a theoretical application. I do not think glutaraldehyde is a best option for carbon dosing given the risks of killing many things in your tank and causing potential health problems in your macrofauna. I am happy to be wrong, though, if someone with real data and chemistry are willing to share.

Beautifully said.

 

[Malum Argenteum]

I'm talking about adding only 1 ml per 50 liters of fresh water (concentration 2.5%). I repeat, I'm not going to put this in a marine aquarium.

Freshwater planted tank keepers have experience with glutaraldehyde, and knowledge of how (they suppose) it works. Marine keepers do not (which is the reason for the comments to that effect). You might try asking advanced planted tank keepers.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Very cool! How realistic is it to make a bacteriological seeding of aquarium water in order to find out what bacteria there are in principle (all the species that are currently in the aquarium)? What is the name of such testing? Thank you.

I think there are companies out there that will test the tank’s bacterial biome but I haven’t tried any.

 

[JoJosReef]

Beautifully said.

Just went back to 2008 and checked. Yes, fixed Plasmodium parasites in red blood cells with glutaraldehyde at 0.025%. I imagine it would be insufficient to kill off much in a fish tank at 0.025% given the much higher biomass, but I don't think it would be worth the risk for something with a simpler solution.

And back to OP, I don't think glutaraldehyde metabolism is going to enrich for a "new" type of bacteria in our fish tanks, and I speculate that as many of these metabolic processes are quite conserved across different bacteria. And even if it is, our goal usually is to cultivate a microbiome that is similar to the ocean and not something out of a petri dish, so if it were to move the needle in which bacteria are more prevalent, it might be in a direction you don't care to go. Big black box. If you've got some funding in the tune of ~$100k, might be able to perform a decent study on it

 

[crazyfishmom]

So vinegar, vodka, sugar form a different set of bacteria in the aquarium?

I wouldn’t say that. Definitely different carbon source materials will differentially expand bacterial populations. That said: I do not expect an aldehyde to be used effectively by most if not all the bacterial strains in our tanks. Do I think that it’s possible for a bacterial strain to start to use it? Possible. Probable? No. Also, you’d damage other life forms in your tank before you get any change in bacterial populations. At any rate this has become a circular conversation and I don’t find it very fruitful. Thanks for posing the question.

 

[MnFish1]

Yes, but in aquarium hobby there is much less concentration of this substance, which dissolves in water and interacts with the soil (in a plant aquarium). It helps to cope with the disease of white dots both in a plant aquarium and in a marine aquarium, helps to get rid of algae and apparently gives nutrition to bacteria - the only question is concentration. I'm talking about adding only 1 ml per 50 liters of fresh water (concentration 2.5%). I repeat, I'm not going to put this in a marine aquarium.
Any substance is both a poison and a medicine - it depends only on the concentration.

Maybe this article will help: I think it explains the potential toxicity, etc of the chemical. I would not personally want it in an aquarium. https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/tp208-c6.pdf

 

[MnFish1]

Glutaraldehyde is not stable at high pH - and if used - would probably be limited to a freshwater tank anyway.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Hi!
If you add sugar or vodka, then the bacterias get carbon source. Therefore, they begin to actively reproduce.
Glutaraldehyde is also carbon, can it feed bacteria in the smallest doses?
Once in the water, what substances does glutaraldehyde break down into?
Why does glutaraldehyde can kill infusorias, but at the same time nitrifying bacteria remain alive? Does it work selectively or are bacteria more resistant to it?
Thank you a lot!

I dont really understand the question. Why are we talking about gluteraldehyde?

 

[JoJosReef]

I dont really understand the question. Why are we talking about gluteraldehyde?

The OP is asking about it as a source of carbon dosing instead of vinegar, vodka, etc.

 

[Koty]

Yes, but in aquarium hobby there is much less concentration of this substance, which dissolves in water and interacts with the soil (in a plant aquarium). It helps to cope with the disease of white dots both in a plant aquarium and in a marine aquarium, helps to get rid of algae and apparently gives nutrition to bacteria - the only question is concentration. I'm talking about adding only 1 ml per 50 liters of fresh water (concentration 2.5%). I repeat, I'm not going to put this in a marine aquarium.
Any substance is both a poison and a medicine - it depends only on the concentration.

Think of glutaraldehyde as an extreme version of Formaldehyde. Both are volatile mutagens. They will kill bacteria instantly and may contribute to your death at a much longer timescale. I use it occasionally to fix samples for electron microscopy. Always work in a chemical hood with gloves etc...

 

[taricha]

I dont really understand the question. Why are we talking about gluteraldehyde?

In freshwater (where OP question is from) gluteraldehyde is marketed as a "CO2 source" by API, Seachem etc.
Because it usually doesn't kill vascular plants and kills off nuisance algae, and breaks down over time, it's promoted as "increasing plant growth" for planted tanks.
It's a pretty deceptive (or at least intentionally confusing) way to describe an algaecide.

But I want to understand whether a small dose of glutaraldehyde is food for bacteria or not? I am in the process of studying this issue, because a huge number of people use this remedy in freshwater aquariums.

The "food for bacteria" is just stating the fact that it is a carbon-containing compound that is degraded over time. So are a bunch of other things. I'm sure many poisons and pesticides decompose over time, so you could call them "food for bacteria" if you really wanted to, but that'd be pretty misleading.