Go All in with Advanced Alkalinity and pH Control [ADVANCED]

[ReefStable]

Go All in with Advanced Alkalinity and pH Control

How do you control both pH and Alkalinity at the same time? Well I'm glad you asked! Combining kalkwasser with a calcium reactor, we can maintain both pH and Alkalinity and even make it automatic!




READ MORE HERE: https://reefstable.com/blog/ph-and-alkalinity-control

General Warning / Disclaimer
Let me start by saying that this is an ADVANCED topic. If you haven't been maintaining a tank with similar methods for a while, be cautious in implementing this!
This is the method I use to grow healthier coral faster! Not everybody needs to grow coral faster, especially if you do not farm coral.
Keep note that you can over-dose alkalinity quickly with this method if you don't know what you're doing!

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

This sounds complicated, expensive and the CO2 fighting with kalk for control. Couldn't you program with under dosing All-For-Reef and one dosing pump with a tube in a container of Randy's part B hydroxide mix - on at 8.2 off at 8.29 ?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I didn't watch the video, but the important issue (IMO) that we have pondered about and some others have tried to assess is whether strong pH control at fixed alk leads to any apparent changes to the aquarium inhabitants compared to the same fixed alk and less tight pH control.

Were you able to assess that?

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

Were you able to ***** that?

IDK - I dose once at night about midnight - works for me

 

[kenchilada]

This sounds complicated, expensive and the CO2 fighting with kalk for control.

It doesn't have to be expensive or complicated. My first calcium reactor was made out of PVC pipe, a maxijet and a $30 Victor regulator off ebay (which I still use because its better than what they sell for the hobby).

 

[ReefStable]

This sounds complicated, expensive and the CO2 fighting with kalk for control. Couldn't you program with under dosing All-For-Reef and one dosing pump with a tube in a container of Randy's part B hydroxide mix - on at 8.2 off at 8.29 ?

I don't know all of the components of the Part B mix, however, if you're doing any hydroxide, its similar to the kalk component, being a hydroxide.

The negative of using all for reef or even soda ash for the other alk component is that it will cause a very high pH when alk is low since they raise pH as well.

The calcium reactor reduces the pH allowing the kalk and reactor to work together in keeping the alk at the right mark, and the kalk keeps the pH.

Having both of these also allows the tank to determine the best alk control to maintain stable pH and alk.

The one component I would like to add is a method of reducing alkalinity without affecting pH. That would give 100% control over the 2 parameters.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The one component I would like to add is a method of reducing alkalinity without affecting pH. That would give 100% control over the 2 parameters.

I don't think that's a possible goal to accomplish with anything short of a water change with a lower alk salt mix at the same pH.

 

[ReefStable]

I didn't watch the video, but the important issue (IMO) that we have pondered about and some others have tried to assess is whether strong pH control at fixed alk leads to any apparent changes to the aquarium inhabitants compared to the same fixed alk and less tight pH control.

Were you able to assess that?

I'm finding better growth in stoney corals, especially acropora and montipora.

Unfortunately this is anecdotal though as I don't have the infrastructure to do a strong controlled study.

Ideally I would test with 4 different setups.
1. Kalkwasser - Controlled High pH with varied alk
2. 2-Part - Controlled Alk with varied pH
3. Calcium Reactor - Controlled Alk with lower pH
4. Kalkwasser + Calcium Reactor Combo - Controlled Alk and pH

The reality is that I would need 2 more reactors, and 4 dosing pumps, as well as 4 tanks worth of space and lighting/flow to make all of this work.

As much as I would love to conduct the study, since I don't sell equipment, it doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

Maybe in the future I'll have more R&D budget/space. Just not at the moment.

 

[ReefStable]

I don't think that's a possible goal to accomplish with anything short of a water change with a lower alk salt mix at the same pH.

I agree. The closest I could think of was a Calcium carbonated that could precipitate some bicarbonate out. There would still be pH effect, but I'm not sure of the extent. The downside is that I think the effect on Calcium would be too much and lead to a constant loop between parameters.

I can dream

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As much as I would love to conduct the study, since I don't sell equipment, it doesn't make sense from a business perspective.

Maybe in the future I'll have more R&D budget/space. Just not at the moment.

I understand. I never had the gumption to set up such studies in a controlled way.

If one were to try to understand if pH stability is better than variable pH, an important study design aspect is whether the stable pH is being compared to the high end of the variable pH, the low end, or something in the middle.

I recall one study of pH variability on coral growth, and the variable pH did OK, but I do not recall it being compared to the same coral ONLY at the higher pH.

While not exactly the topic here, this recent study shows that over long periods of time, corals may be able to adapt to lower pH situations:

Corals adapted to extreme and fluctuating seawater pH increase calcification rates and have unique symbiont communities

Ocean acidification (OA) is a severe threat to coral reefs mainly by reducing their calcification rate. Identifying the resilience factors of corals to decreasing seawater pH is of paramount importance to predict the survivability of coral reefs in the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

I don't know all of the components of the Part B mix, however, if you're doing any hydroxide, its similar to the kalk component, being a hydroxide.

The negative of using all for reef or even soda ash for the other alk component is that it will cause a very high pH when alk is low since they raise pH as well.

The calcium reactor reduces the pH allowing the kalk and reactor to work together in keeping the alk at the right mark, and the kalk keeps the pH.

Having both of these also allows the tank to determine the best alk control to maintain stable pH and alk.

The one component I would like to add is a method of reducing alkalinity without affecting pH. That would give 100% control over the 2 parameters.

"I don't know all of the components of the Part B mix, however, if you're doing any hydroxide, its similar to the kalk component, being a hydroxide."

I think there is a high Alk , high PH without Calcium - Randy's sodium hydroxide.

Part A of a 2-part - includes everything - trying to limit components !

"The negative of using all for reef or even soda ash for the other alk component is that it will cause a very high pH when alk is low since they raise pH as well."

Slightly under dose A4R or not would not excessively raise PH.

You mention "low Alk high PH" and "high Alk for PH control" - I can't follow, there are tables that show only one PH for a certain Alk depending on CO2.

 

[ReefStable]

"I don't know all of the components of the Part B mix, however, if you're doing any hydroxide, its similar to the kalk component, being a hydroxide."

I think there is a high Alk , high PH without Calcium - Randy's sodium hydroxide.

Part A of a 2-part - includes everything - trying to limit components !

"The negative of using all for reef or even soda ash for the other alk component is that it will cause a very high pH when alk is low since they raise pH as well."

Slightly under dose A4R or not would not excessively raise PH.

You mention "low Alk high PH" and "high Alk for PH control" - I can't follow, there are tables that show only one PH for a certain Alk depending on CO2.

Where are you referencing the "low Alk high PH" part from? Alkalinity in an aquarium typically is in lock step with pH and then shifted by CO2. Since hydroxides react with CO2, it allows a higher pH at lower Alkalinity levels. Is that what you're referencing?

I can't speak much to All for Reef. I haven't had time to dig into what it is and how it works. I also tend to stay away from 1-company solutions and focus on the bigger picture. Mostly because if a company went out of business or gets bought out and the product isn't available anymore, I would have to change my entire model.

I'll look into it but honestly, I have no intention to use all for reef. I don't thing it's feasible for a farming system either way.

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

Where are you referencing the "low Alk high PH" part from? Alkalinity in an aquarium typically is in lock step with pH and then shifted by CO2. Since hydroxides react with CO2, it allows a higher pH at lower Alkalinity levels. Is that what you're referencing?

"The negative of using all for reef or even soda ash for the other alk component is that it will cause a very high pH when alk is low since they raise pH as well."

Only until the tank is in equilibrium with the surrounding air.

Same as dosing sodium bicarbonate raises Alk - lowers PH - until the tank is in equilibrium with the surrounding air.

 

[ReefStable]

Ahh, yeah, that was in comparison to a calcium reactor. Calcium reactors tend to reduce pH as it adds CO2 where soda ash and hydroxide will increase pH.

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

Ahh, yeah, that was in comparison to a calcium reactor. Calcium reactors tend to reduce pH as it adds CO2 where soda ash and hydroxide will increase pH.

I have seen the BRS series and tests on 50% more growth with a PH of 8.3. Also, as Randy stated uncertain how high Alk, High PH affects all inhabitants of the tank ?

 

[yury88]

I don't know all of the components of the Part B mix, however, if you're doing any hydroxide, its similar to the kalk component, being a hydroxide.

The negative of using all for reef or even soda ash for the other alk component is that it will cause a very high pH when alk is low since they raise pH as well.

The calcium reactor reduces the pH allowing the kalk and reactor to work together in keeping the alk at the right mark, and the kalk keeps the pH.

Having both of these also allows the tank to determine the best alk control to maintain stable pH and alk.

The one component I would like to add is a method of reducing alkalinity without affecting pH. That would give 100% control over the 2 parameters.

These some kinda of misconception, you should learn chemistry for better understanding.
Let's make it clear:
1)All for Reef is Calcium Formate
Ca(HCOO)2 + O2 = CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O
So AFR lower PH!
2)Soda Ash of Sodium Carbonate
Yes in short term in make PH higher, but we are dosing it for Corals and reaction will be:
CaCl2 + Na2CO3 -> CaCO3 + 2NaCl
So it's gives zero impact on PH in long term.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So it's gives zero impact on PH in long term.

Just commenting on that sentence, which might be a little overly simplified. You may very well understand these nuances, but I would not assume all readers do.

I agree in absolute terms it is correct: carbonate gives a pH boost when added, and when calcification takes place, consuming carbonate, that process gives a pH decline that offsets the rise. Obviously, adding and removing carbonate while doing nothing else cannot have a net pH effect.

The question when discussing a pH rise or fall is, IMO, relative to what. If calcification occurs anyway, then that pH decline happens anyway, and how exactly to add back the lost alkalinity will impact pH.

Compared to doing nothing, to replacing alk with bicarbonate or any mixture of bicarbonate and carbonate, to replacing alk by water change, including with natural seawater, or to replacing alk with any organic form of alkalinity (formate, acetate, etc.), using carbonate will have a net pH raising effect.

Compared to adding hydroxide or any combination of hydroxide and carbonate, adding carbonate alone has a pH lowering effect.

 

[yury88]

Just commenting on that sentence, which might be a little overly simplified. You may very well understand these nuances, but I would not assume all readers do.

I agree in absolute terms it is correct: carbonate gives a pH boost when added, and when calcification takes place, consuming carbonate, that process gives a pH decline that offsets the rise. Obviously, adding and removing carbonate while doing nothing else cannot have a net pH effect.

The question when discussing a pH rise or fall is, IMO, relative to what. If calcification occurs anyway, then that pH decline happens anyway, and how exactly to add back the lost alkalinity will impact pH.

Compared to doing nothing, to replacing alk with bicarbonate or any mixture of bicarbonate and carbonate, to replacing alk by water change, including with natural seawater, or to replacing alk with any organic form of alkalinity (formate, acetate, etc.), using carbonate will have a net pH raising effect.

Compared to adding hydroxide or any combination of hydroxide and carbonate, adding carbonate alone has a pH lowering effect.

I think in context of topic this statement about zero impact is correct.
I don't think that somebody is going to lower PH at night to achieve KH/PH equilibrium, so we are speaking only about dosing during day when coral calcification going.

So author wants to raise PH at night with Limewater and lower PH with Calcium reactor during the day.
In my point of view you can replace Calcium reactor with sodium bicarbonate and achieve same result with much less complicated system, because in process of coral calcification PH impact will be negative. But of course its just a theory.

And I have some experience with Calcium Formiate + Automatic PH/KH testing and can say that it will be same, and I can recommend everyone with PH issue avoid using AFR...

/////
Same time I'm currently keeping PH in my system stable above 8.3 24/7. And I have strong doubts that its possible to have stable PH +stable KH with some chemical dosing 24/7, its just not working like that. Only CO2 scrubber can maintain PH this way.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think in context of topic this statement about zero impact is correct.

OK, perhaps we will just agree to disagree, but I think it is more complicated than a simple analysis suggests.

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

I initially proposed, can it be done this way : A4R and sodium hydroxide ?

Lou Ekus advises to dose A4R for Calcium not ALK maybe because of individual differences in atmospheric CO2.

The Chemists here posit : formulas that help us understand what will happen when we dose certain things to our tanks. We have been shown we get CaCO3 that we need, CO2 that may be bad, water that may be good and salt that will eventually build up in our tanks.

I as a reefer I use : Sodium hydroxide if I want high Alk, high PH and no Calcium. I use sodium bicarbonate if I want more Alk and no initial rise in PH. I use Kalkwasser if I want a balanced Calcium plus Alk addition. I also accept my atmospheric CO2 around my tank.