Help needed to quiet down Bean Animal Overflow

[KJAG]

Been running Beans for years and as mentioned: the drains should terminate just below the waterline in the sump, but some people run their open channel slightly lower than the full siphon or vice/versa I personally have never had any issues running both at the same level into the sump but there are many variables that differentiate one tank from another so I'd recommend playing with the length into the waterline, but not much. Your goal with the open channel is to have just a trickle of water spiraling around the walls of the standpipe. Anything beyond is too much flow(for the open channel)
From what you describe it should be resolved by playing with the standpipe termination level into the sump.
For the record I have my standpipes ending an inch into the water in the sump and it's absolutely silent.

 

[tvu]

How much flow do you estimate you are sending to this drain?

I'm using an Ecotech M1 pump with 2 1" return lines. I have the initial return line go into a manifold which currently only uses 1 output for a slow pass thru a UV Sterilizer before hitting a Tee to the 2 returns.

I would assume my drains can handle way more flow than what the M1 pump is pushing out even without head pressure involved.

 

[tvu]

Just checked the full siphon line. Looks like with the current flow, the pipe is about 1-1.5" below water line.

When I used to have gate valve fully open the overflow box was had low level of water. Now when I have it open fully the water level does not appear to drop in he overflow box which is weird.

I've opened and closed the gate valve completely to ensure that any blocks are cleared. Just seems my open line is draining much faster then it should be

 

[tvu]

You guys rock! It was the termination into the sump of the full siphon pipe.

I fortunately have a coupler on the pipe in the sump to adjust pipe length and I shortened the pipe by about .5" and it's dead silent now.

What I think happened is when I dosed the tank with prazipro several weeks ago, the drain started to produce mass air bubbles once water hit the sump. Possibly those air bubbles couldn't escape the full siphon drain and put pressure back into the overflow so the open channel was being used more then it would under normal conditions.

With the shortened full siphon pipe in the sump now just about .75" under the water line the bubbles can escape.

Again thanks all. I knew you guys knew everything about reefing and plumbing tanks.

 

[tvu]

So it is true what they say - an inch makes a huge difference [emoji16]

 

[KJAG]

Indeed. Early on running this system I was blown away at how much of a difference was achieved secondary to shortening the standpipes. It's a minor adjustment though, and Congrats! You still have the most superior overflow in the hobby!

 

[mcarroll]

It was the termination into the sump of the full siphon pipe.

Glad you got it fixed!!!

I'm using an Ecotech M1 pump with 2 1" return lines.

Only a side note: If you need more flow and decide to re-plumb, just upgrading to 1.5" plumbing can give your pump a huge burst. The higher the flow rate, the more difference you can expect.

Just for example, if your tank is 5' and the return is just a straight shot, you might expect about 1400 GPH from your pump according to Ecotech:

But that's without considering specifics of the plumbing.

1400GPH is a lot of flow, so lets figure...
(calculations from http://www.freecalc.com/fric.htm)

1" PVC puts another 4.5' of additional head pressure on the pump via friction losses – almost doubling the load against the pump for no real good reason....reducing your actual flow rate to something closer to 800 GPH:

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 1.98 Head Loss (ft): 4.5
Line Number:
Date: 12/26/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 23.3
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.00015
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 8.65
Reynolds Number: 72002
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.025
Overall K: 3.85
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1​

By contrast, with 1.5" PVC there's practically no friction loss:

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.3 Head Loss (ft): 0.7
Line Number:
Date: 12/26/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 1.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 23.3
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.00015
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.61
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 3.67
Reynolds Number: 46913
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.025
Overall K: 3.25
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1​

 

[jaws789832]

I kinda figured that's what it was. I had to mess with mine a bunch to get it right at first

 

[tvu]

Glad you got it fixed!!!



Only a side note: If you need more flow and decide to re-plumb, just upgrading to 1.5" plumbing can give your pump a huge burst. The higher the flow rate, the more difference you can expect.

Just for example, if your tank is 5' and the return is just a straight shot, you might expect about 1400 GPH from your pump according to Ecotech:

But that's without considering specifics of the plumbing.

1400GPH is a lot of flow, so lets figure...
(calculations from http://www.freecalc.com/fric.htm)

1" PVC puts another 4.5' of additional head pressure on the pump via friction losses – almost doubling the load against the pump for no real good reason....reducing your actual flow rate to something closer to 800 GPH:

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 1.98 Head Loss (ft): 4.5
Line Number:
Date: 12/26/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 1
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 23.3
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.00015
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.049
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 8.65
Reynolds Number: 72002
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.025
Overall K: 3.85
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1​

By contrast, with 1.5" PVC there's practically no friction loss:

Liquid Friction Pressure Loss
Pressure Loss (psi): 0.3 Head Loss (ft): 0.7
Line Number:
Date: 12/26/2016
Nominal Pipe Size: 1.5
Pipe Schedule: SCH 40
Flow Rate (gpm): 23.3
Viscosity (cP): 1
Specific Gravity (water=1): 1.025
Temperature (F): 79
Pipe Roughness (ft): 0.00015
Actual Pipe ID (in.): 1.61
Fluid Velocity (ft/sec): 3.67
Reynolds Number: 46913
Flow Region: Turbulent
Friction Factor: 0.025
Overall K: 3.25
Piping Length (ft): 5
Short Radius Elbows: 2
Pipe Entrance: 1
Pipe Exit : 1​

Thanks but no way I taking my tank down to redrill the returns [emoji16]

 

[Aaron Davis]

Hmmmm. So I got a response from a R2R member saying that it sounded like I have a bean overflow set up on my tank and after doing some looking, it appears that is indeed what I have. Had no idea, as I am still new to this. Anywho. From what I can tell, a bean overflow is setup as the following: A main siphon pip that points upward, a "half" siphon pipe also pointed upward that is slightly higher than the main siphon, and then an emergency overflow pip that only has water going through it in the event that the overflow box fills up with too much water for whatever reason. Is this correct? My setup has all 4 pipes, except they are all level with one another and one has a air hose attached to it. Is anyone able to explain how this should be and how this system works in simple terms? Thanks!

 

[cbear44]

Hmmmm. So I got a response from a R2R member saying that it sounded like I have a bean overflow set up on my tank and after doing some looking, it appears that is indeed what I have. Had no idea, as I am still new to this. Anywho. From what I can tell, a bean overflow is setup as the following: A main siphon pip that points upward, a "half" siphon pipe also pointed upward that is slightly higher than the main siphon, and then an emergency overflow pip that only has water going through it in the event that the overflow box fills up with too much water for whatever reason. Is this correct? My setup has all 4 pipes, except they are all level with one another and one has a air hose attached to it. Is anyone able to explain how this should be and how this system works in simple terms? Thanks!

This is the original "Beananimal" build. Many variations on this it sounds like you have the core of the components. If it works - keep it up!

http://www.beananimal.com/projects/silent-and-fail-safe-aquarium-overflow-system.aspx

 

[jaws789832]

In simple terms, 3 pipes.
1. First pipe, main syphon. Its a pipe with an elbow pointed down. Its the lowest of the 3 pipes, not by a whole lot though. There needs to be a valve in this line (most use a gate valve for this to be able to fine tune)
2. Second pipe, gravity feed pipe. It too has an elbow pointed down. This elbow has a hole drilled in the top and a piece of hose in the hole that comes out of the top, loops back around and points back down into the tank. The end of that hose is fastened so it is a little above the normal water level in the tank but below the emergency drain pipe.
3. Emergency drain, pipe facing up, well below the tank overflowing point.

How it works:
Under normal operating conditions the main syphon handles most of the water draining. There should be no bubbles coming out of this pipe. It should be a full syphon ( think of a water change hose. You put one end of a hose in the tank, suck on the other end, water flows with no air, the second air is intoduced water stops syphon is broke. The second pipe is just gravity feed. The water level rises above this pipe and just falls down it there is air in this pipe. The third pipe does nothing at this point. Just sits there dry.

Ok so your return pump goes off for some reason. Water level in the tank drops down to where all 3 pipes are dry and your sump fills up ( hopefully you accounted for this and it doesn't overflow). When you turn your pump back on, water flows and starts filling the Dt. Water rises and gets to the main syphon, but at this point its not a syphon yet, its just gravity fed because there is air in the line and its sucking air until the water rises more. It starts gurgling and makes a racket, the water keeps rising until it reaches the gravity feed pipe. Now this pipe starts gurgling and making a racket. Meanwhile the syphon pipe is still clearing air. The water continues to rise until it covers the tube that you have coming out of the top of the gravity drain. Now what you have is 2 pipes trying to become full syphons. About this time your full syphon has cleared all the air and is truly a full syphon, with no bubbles coming out of the end and is pulling a lot of water. The water level in the tank actually starts dropping because you basically have 2 syphons going. It drops until the hose from the gravity drain gets above the water level and air is introduced into the second pipe thus creating the gravity drain again and everything levels out. Now if not enough air (or too much)is introduced into the gravity feed pipe you will hear gurgling. This is where the valve in the syphon line comes in. You open or close this valve until the noise goes relatively silent. Also having a valve after the return pump is handy to adjust the flow going back into the tank.

The emergency drain is only there in case 1 of the other pipes gets clogged. If the full syphon gets clogged, water level rises, plugging up the airline hose , turning the gravity feed into a full syphon and the emergency drain becomes the gravity feed.

The ends of the pipes in the sump are pretty critical. You want them to be below the water level of the normal sump level to eliminate splashing noise, but not so deep that they cant clear the air out to reach full syphon. The deeper they go the longer it takes to get to full syphon and sometimes it cant do it so it remains noisy. Most people keep the emergency drain pipe well anove the sump water level so when it is flowing it is loud and it alerts you that there is a problem. Hope this helps

 

[Aaron Davis]

Fantastic!!!!!!!! Thanks gents!

 

[Stolireef]

I just set up my first Bean Animal and this thread saved me from pulling my hair out. I couldn't get the noise to stop until I shortened the down pipe so it sits just below the surface of the water. This allowed the air to escape and now I have a completely silent overflow. Thanks to all.

 

[Aaron Davis]

I just set up my first Bean Animal and this thread saved me from pulling my hair out. I couldn't get the noise to stop until I shortened the down pipe so it sits just below the surface of the water. This allowed the air to escape and now I have a completely silent overflow. Thanks to all.

Likewise. Was a lot of help for me. I didn't even know what the system was when I got mine set up and I don't think the previous owners did either. I simply set it up the same way they had it and man, it was all backwards. These guys helped me out a lot and now I have a silent overflow. It's amazing.

 

[mcarroll]

I didn't even know what the system was when I got mine set up and I don't think the previous owners did either.

Most builds end up being driven by things other than need, so I bet this is not uncommon.