High Ammonia level after 10% water change

[Baigent87]

Hi Guys!!! I’m new here so take it easy on me

I’m 1 week into my cycle using 2 clownfish and a bottle of Dr Tim’s One & Only.

After testing once a day for the past week I’ve seen a large spike in ammonia (1.2) which has held strong for the past 4 days. I was advised by my local aquatics store to do a 10% water change which I’ve done, I retested after a couple of hours and the ammonia levels are still at 1.2.

The fish seem fine, darting around the tank and eating great. I’ve reduced there meals to one medium feed per day as was feeding twice a day.

Should I do another larger water change or wait for the drop in ammonia?

 

[Freenow54]

Hi Guys!!! I’m new here so take it easy on me

I’m 1 week into my cycle using 2 clownfish and a bottle of Dr Tim’s One & Only.

After testing once a day for the past week I’ve seen a large spike in ammonia (1.2) which has held strong for the past 4 days. I was advised by my local aquatics store to do a 10% water change which I’ve done, I retested after a couple of hours and the ammonia levels are still at 1.2.

The fish seem fine, darting around the tank and eating great. I’ve reduced there meals to one medium feed per day as was feeding twice a day.

Should I do another larger water change or wait for the drop in ammonia?

10% is pretty small. I had a huge problem in my freshwater tank. Was only using two hang on the back filters. Ridiculous. I asked on the forum. You are experiencing the very situation I did. The true signs are very dramatic according to the #reefsquad people. I do not know what you are using for filtration. I went and bought a fluval canister filter using it as is with the exception of adding matrix ammonia media. I did about 3 80% water changes. The ammonia refused to go down to normal down to1%. I did however have about 4% ammonia at the start. The strange thing was before I decided to start using test kits this tank ran for 8 to 10 years with no loss, and even breeding was going on. No visible signs. I even was using tap water. I only started testing because I was losing them to bloat. The food was the problem, as they are south African Malawi yellows, and do not digest fish matter. So back to the ammonia. I started using SeaPora ammonia pads, and Fluvals ammonia media. One week later Ammonia is zero. No reason why you cant use a fluval . It is however a gravity fed filter, and has to be below the tank bottom. I use one on my salt water with one large clown, and lots of coral. All readings are zero. Good luck

 

[brandon429]

The reason he doesn’t need it is because he doesn’t have an ammonia issue like your freshwater tank. His title would say my fish died and the water is all gray and smelly

be sure and click the example thread post #38

for example

do a search here on these terms:
api ammonia misread

see how all the umpires follow the post title? On those search terms, we’re in unison api can’t be used accurately by anyone other than actual chemists by trade.

but here, he’s certainly got free ammonia, for sure.

the test kit you used to discern the free ammonia on the freshwater tank, undebatable at that moment just the same.


why is it that anyone who owns a seneye never sees a stalled cycle

 

[Freenow54]

10% is pretty small. I had a huge problem in my freshwater tank. Was only using two hang on the back filters. Ridiculous. I asked on the forum. You are experiencing the very situation I did. The true signs are very dramatic according to the #reefsquad people. I do not know what you are using for filtration. I went and bought a fluval canister filter using it as is with the exception of adding matrix ammonia media. I did about 3 80% water changes. The ammonia refused to go down to normal down to1%. I did however have about 4% ammonia at the start. The strange thing was before I decided to start using test kits this tank ran for 8 to 10 years with no loss, and even breeding was going on. No visible signs. I even was using tap water. I only started testing because I was losing them to bloat. The food was the problem, as they are south African Malawi yellows, and do not digest fish matter. So back to the ammonia. I started using SeaPora ammonia pads, and Fluvals ammonia media. One week later Ammonia is zero. No reason why you cant use a fluval . It is however a gravity fed filter, and has to be below the tank bottom. I use one on my salt water with one large clown, and lots of coral. All readings are zero. Good luck

Also more info would be good. Did you put in live rock, and cycle It? It took me 2 months ( with the lights off ) to cycle my new tank. You need a test kit that measures ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates. You will see the ammonia drop once the first colony of bacteria grows, and see the Nitrites spike,. Next after I forget how long the Nitrites get changed to Nitrates. That you have to look after yourself, and I did not know but a certain level of that is a good thing. Look up Bulk Reef Supply videos. Very informative

 

[Lasse]

I would stop the feeding totally and await an decrease of the ammonium/ammoniac complex (Red Sea measure total ammonia) In this complex _ only ammoniac is toxic and how much that will be in the toxic form depends mostly by pH. Here you have a tool to calculate how much toxic NH3 (ammoniac) you have at a given pH.

A quick tool for evulation of total ammonia measurements

Most aquarium ammonia test kits measure the total concentration of NH3 (ammoniac) and NH4 (ammonium). It is only the NH3 concentration that is toxic and the presence of each N species is depended on pH, temperature and salinity. The tool in the excel file is adapted for 25 degree C (77 F). At 27...

www.reef2reef.com

Because you are in the start phase - the only ammonia producer you have is when the fish eat. They secrete excess nitrogen in the form of ammonium / ammoniac via the gills. Most excretions occur in the first two to three hours after eating


You may get some ideas from this

15 Steps to Starting a Saltwater Aquarium: The Lasse Method

15 Steps to Starting a Saltwater Aquarium: The Lasse Method Display Tank. Photos are all courtesy of Lasse Forsberg. ©2019, All Rights Reserved. INTRODUCTION There are many methods to start a saltwater aquarium--each major aquarium product manufacturer has its own. Common to most, however...

www.reef2reef.com

Nitrite and nitrate questions here and here

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

On seneye he would have ammonia under control, I’m amazed you’d instantly believe the stats posted Lasse without any context



we have already tested Dr Tim’s bac on seneye, it works instantly if the bottle isn’t dead.

when pics are posted here we are looking for clean water, high surface area attachment points, happy fish, already fed twenty times and still in clean water, and the only disagreeing component is a test kit known to misread by thousands of testers.

if his bottle bac was dead, he could not have kept fed fish up to the point where a ten pct change stripped the tank of all bac

 

[brandon429]

See post 80 here

Is anyone with a mindstream or seneye ammonia reader willing to co-fund a cycling experiment with me

Hmm this 20 gallon tank took almost 1ml to hit 0.022. I didn’t see any movement till .5ml Per Dr. Tims, 1ml = 20 drops. I'm dosing 0.2 ml (4 drops) to get a few thousands, give or take. Sometimes my drops are not that exact though. My Seneye is in the return chamber and I dose one chamber...

www.reef2reef.com

see the difference seneye makes


that one thread has multiple seneye proofs that bottle bac instantly control ammonia and we have it compared to other misreading test kits alongside.

a summary for page 3

on seneye, nobody has ammonia control issues


off seneye, lol everyone does. umpires fill in the gaps to make up for being led by a thread title. Is it not a fact that this entire thread is built on one ammonia test, unverified, possibly taken under greenish kitchen light and the vial not filled to five mils + a five minute wait before reporting? I think that’s highly possible. seneye works above show that bottle bac instantly work.

 

[brandon429]

It’s true he might not have controlled ammonia, but we can’t tell that from the stated params


hes not applying a TAN conversion on these reported results, for example. We need a simple full tank picture for context here, let’s see what the highly poisonous burning molecule is doing on the big picture scope

its important to click and consider the 4x disagreeing ammonia test kits shown on file in the false ammonia alert thread, that’s directly showing readers how on one water sample the feedback ranges from panic/ free ammonia (non digital kits) to 100% controlled, on seneye.


why was mid testing never, ever, factored here or considered even one iota


Im just as guilty of never believing free ammonia when there may be some as y’all are of 100% believing anyone’s free ammonia without requiring any context or big picture proofing. The reason that’s my default mode is because all the testers you guys believe show .25 or higher


yet no seneye has ever reached that level in cycling *after it’s trimmed and proven to reach thousandths level on a running reef* (a very big deal in Jon’s seneye proof thread above was how he benchmarked it for high accuracy, before we used it to smash hobby beliefs about free ammonia issues)


the day someone’s post shows a convincingly calibrated seneye showing tenths ppm free ammonia in the presence of happy and 20x fed fish in a high surface area system dosed with bottle bac ten days ago, I’ll have a new tune to sing. Until then, I bet this whole thread is a misread.

 

[Lasse]

@brandon429 can you show me any test that says that Seneye´s NH3 reading is exact and accurate?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

It’s the best we have, show me where it’s inaccurate


get a hach meter from a lab, if it shows anything other than what I typed I’ll go edit stuff. Just because seneye disproves most of your filtration theory doesn’t make it wrong


and then again nobody has done studies with it beyond our amazingly detailed and calibrated works done in home tanks...the jury is still deliberating


What I do is aim conflicting post patterns at one another and pay attention to the explanations of events. I myself don’t own a seneye nor have ever conducted an ammonia test on a reef but y’all do, daily, for twenty years and in that is pattern and conflict gold.

 

[Baigent87]

Hi Guys! Sorry if I’ve missed a few posts or comments on here the response on this has been astounding!

Quick update. I did around a 35% water change, would have been larger, long story short my brand new heater exploding in my freshly mixed salt water!

I retested after 1.5 hours and the results are as follows -

ammonia - 1.2
nitrite - 0.2
nitrate - 2

pics of the test and tank attached. Only turned the lights on for 10 seconds to take a pic

 

[brandon429]

Lasse I do believe you’ve seen and legit tested free ammonia in aquaculture systems. Those are about max fish carry, pressing the limits of filtration per unit of surface area


but these tanks are all minimal dilution/ two clowns, massive dilution, absolutely massive surface area, and bottle bac shown to be instantly live directly above. I just wanted you to see I don’t dissent to be contrary it’s a true sincere belief that we alter our evaluations around a posts title.

 

[brandon429]

Hey was that rock wet when you brought it home

or dry

 

[brandon429]

Code red: I see a foraminiferan (up top, poking up, little candelabra)

 

[brandon429]

I count twenty forams and fifteen tubeworms

this rock appears to have been brought home wet, ie with all its bacteria already in tact? If not, that was mean of someone to dry out formerly live rock then sell it to you.


if it takes much longer to find out if this rock was wet when you brought it home I might have an event over here

 

[Fezbearer]

 

[Baigent87]

The rock was sold to me as dry premium reef rock. The sand is not live either. Why am I now panicking lol

 

[brandon429]

thats nice detailed rock no panic.

you'll simply have to choose where you stand on non digital testing given the links so far. The hobby is not decided yet on the status of your reef lol.

I claim if your reef couldnt control ammonia you'd have dead fish not feeding. others see it differently, but they dont see it that way via digital testing its always via color compare kits.

curious: if you apply the TAN conversion to discern nh3 from your reading off the red sea kit, what level of ammonia do you get

It is not inaccurate to say the only indication you have of a problem is the test kit, nothing in the pic looks different from a fully functioning running reef tank. there's always that conflict in the links I make. The most poisonous compound our tanks generate never cause any actual pain, loss, clouding, but the kits send the alarm every time well in advance apparently

in our false ammonia alert thread every single reef looks exactly like yours. Some were reacting to claimed free ammonia/no TAN conversion in 2 year old reefs looking exactly that clear, handling feed just as yours has been.

 

[Lasse]

If the total ammonia level shows around 0,2 ppm - is normally a false reading and even if it should be a real figure - it is not dangerous. If you read 1.2 ppm as total ammonia - there is something - the real value could be both higher and lower - but it gives an indication that´s something is wrong. I would never give an advise to anyone that just neglect the result in these concentrations because I can´t know if the readings is true or not. I would never say to anyone - just go on feeding - we have 100 working threads that says you are good. This way to give advise is ruthlessly - IMO - and it jeopardize the life of another persons fish.

The problem here is to much food too soon. The fish will manage this situation if not the total ammonia concentration rise more. The bottled bacteria will do its work and the system will cycle.

Personally - if it had been my aquaria - i would not bother doing WC. IMO - it can worse the situation. It is true that the nitrification bacteria need a substrate but the substrate could be tiny particles in your water and new water without biological molecules stress the fish more.

Why am I now panicking lol

This is just what you should not do. Panic will give fast solutions that may not help and your fish will have a roller-coaster of events and more stress -> more ammonia out through the gills. I would just calm down. Add more bottled bacteria. Stop the feeding, stop the feeding, stop the feeding. If you want to do something that can speed up the process - put in a small internal foam filter - like the one you use in fresh water.

If the ammonia not drop - but I´m rather sure it will - look at your nitrite test - if it drop down to below 0.05 - your fine and you can thru away your ammonia test. Your nitrate show 5 because you have nitrite in your water. See my links in the first post.

If you have a freshwater aquarium running - add a little of the sediment into your SW gravel.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

One thing I find to be pertinent as folks are dosing this and that in reaction to claimed free ammonia, when the tank has ran fine for ten days prior and only ten pct of water was changed which doesnt affect the bacteria on rocks, is that all the stuff they add creates a chemical soup


reactive dosing causes just that. if you believe you have free ammonia which I claim you dont the specific action is more water changes, not dosing, and certainly not dosing prime or amquel which then directly causes more false ammonia readings.


the #1 thing you would not add is more bacteria, sinking up your oxygen. you already have max surface area, so the last panic reaction possible and acceptable is a large water change over and over until you feel the threat has passed. thats what the majority would do


what I would do:

stop testing for cycling params here. do a 50% water change, proceed normally and judge your tank by looking at it. the 50% water change wasnt because I think you have free ammonia issues its to export any reactive dosings. if you havent dosed any, then skip the change and put down the test kits and read the fish disease forum for what comes up in about 4 weeks from now.

 

[Lasse]

That you read 0.2 in nitrite indicate that you are not cycled.

@Baigent87 You have to conflicting general advises here - me saying no WC and more bottled nitrification bacteria (by the way if they do not have anything to work with - they will not consume oxygen) and brandon saying the opposite.

You must do an own decision what to do - chose whom you trust and follow that path - do not do anything between

A tough decision - but that´s life

In my first post in this thread - i give some links that explain my way of handling these things - I have not more to say that is not in these links - so I´m out for the moment

Sincerely Lasse