How much Aluminum will it leach? Let's guess

[scardall]

IMO) This concern over Alum. seems to be inconclusive and that Aluminum has not been determined conclusively to have a definitive affect on soft Corals etc. Here's another question? At what point is Alum. effecting Corals? Most people including my self don't spend $$$$ on a Triton test. If Alum. Was a real Issue than why isn't it common place to have a Test Kit for it? Also Is there a way to remove Alum. from your tank once you discover it? Is it worth for proper testing to be done here. I for one will Not spend $$$$ on a Triton Test, not to say it should not be done. Just saying most hobbyist will not either. For now I will follow along.

 

[jason2459]

Thank you!

Is it safe to say if I don't have any leathers I shouldn't worry? I do have one leather now and it looks fine. Does the potential aluminum this product leaches affect any other corals?

I am assuming the largest amount of Al that leaches will mostly happen shortly after putting in the water.

As for its toxicity I do not know. It seems fine for most corals. I would certainly not say ALL at this point. It seems my fiji leather is not happy with it.

 

[reef_ranch]

It is highly likely that aluminum is leaching from the media. If you don't see any issues by now it's probably fine for now.

I'm confused. Your Triton test results show no aluminum. How do you reach the conclusion that it is leaching aluminum?

 

[jason2459]

I'm confused. Your Triton test results show no aluminum. How do you reach the conclusion that it is leaching aluminum?

You're not confused. There was no Al detected by Triton before adding the block.

 

[reef_ranch]

Ok, got it: don't have the after test yet.

I happen to agree with your conclusion, I had elevated aluminum when I used 2 blocks in my sump. I never could get my head around the issue of what form of aluminum might be released and whether it has any impact other than potential initial mechanical type irritation to certain leathers. My leather used to retract, but I had other water issues, so I was not sure I could attribute it to the Aluminum. Ultimately, I relented to the fear of any aluminum and replaced the blocks with Siporax. The only thing that changed was my nitrates went from zero to 5, but the Siporax may not yet be fully seeded. My aluminum has dropped from a high of 47 to 17. Not sure where the 17 comes from, perhaps residual from the blocks?

 

[jason2459]

Partially could be residual. I'm also seeing certain saltmixes contain some Al. But not that high.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO) This concern over Alum. seems to be inconclusive and that Aluminum has not been determined conclusively to have a definitive affect on soft Corals etc. Here's another question? At what point is Alum. effecting Corals? Most people including my self don't spend $$$$ on a Triton test. If Alum. Was a real Issue than why isn't it common place to have a Test Kit for it? Also Is there a way to remove Alum. from your tank once you discover it? Is it worth for proper testing to be done here. I for one will Not spend $$$$ on a Triton Test, not to say it should not be done. Just saying most hobbyist will not either. For now I will follow along.

FWIW, soluble aluminum does definitively impact leather corals and mushrooms. I tested that myself.

Whether this or any hobby product releases any is a different question.

 

[Lasse]

Triton test show the overall concentration of different elemental compounds - not which species it is for the moment.

According to fresh water fishes – there are a couple of Al species that has shown to be toxic. First of all - the Al ion but Al will not appear as an ion if the pH is over 6.5 – and as I see it – its not a concern for saltwater with pH around 8.

However – there has been shown that another toxic species of Al will be formed at pH over 8. The species is Al(OH)4-. A model has shown that over pH 8 – the concentration of Al(OH)4- will rise. A Swedish study has shown that at pH 8.5 a concentration of total Al of 300 μg/l was toxic to the algae Monoraphidium griffithii. Probably because that Al(OH)4- had reach toxic level at pH 8.5

I do not know if this has any relevance in saltwater but there is done very limited studies of the toxicity of Al species at pH over 7.

@Randy Holmes-Farley - have you any information about the formation of Al(OH)4 in saltwater?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Bunnee911]

Will a poly filter pull aluminum out? What colour does the filter change to?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Triton test show the overall concentration of different elemental compounds - not which species it is for the moment.

According to fresh water fishes – there are a couple of Al species that has shown to be toxic. First of all - the Al ion but Al will not appear as an ion if the pH is over 6.5 – and as I see it – its not a concern for saltwater with pH around 8.

However – there has been shown that another toxic species of Al will be formed at pH over 8. The species is Al(OH)4-. A model has shown that over pH 8 – the concentration of Al(OH)4- will rise. A Swedish study has shown that at pH 8.5 a concentration of total Al of 300 μg/l was toxic to the algae Monoraphidium griffithii. Probably because that Al(OH)4- had reach toxic level at pH 8.5

I do not know if this has any relevance in saltwater but there is done very limited studies of the toxicity of Al species at pH over 7.

@Randy Holmes-Farley - have you any information about the formation of Al(OH)4 in saltwater?

Sincerely Lasse

Ignoring binding to organics, aluminum takes the forms of Al(OH)3 and Al(OH)4- in seawater at normal pH.

I discuss it and aluminum tox here:

Aluminum In The Reef Aquarium
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/7/chemistry

from it:

Aluminum In The Ocean
Individual soluble aluminum ions in the ocean largely take the form Al(OH)4-, but some are also present as Al(OH)3.1,2 Aluminum is also strongly attracted to organics and some inorganics (like silica), making the exact speciation of aluminum very complicated. There is also a fair amount of aluminum present in particulate and colloidal forms (typically in combination with silica), ranging in concentration from about the same as the soluble fraction, to much greater.3-6

Interestingly, aluminum is present at much higher total concentration in the Gulf of Mexico (~0.002 ppm for particulate forms only),4 the Atlantic Ocean (0.00014 – 0.0016 ppm))8-12 and the Mediterranean Sea (0.00008 – 0.02 ppm)3 than in the Pacific Ocean (0.0000016 – 0.00016 ppm)7,8 or near Antarctica (0.00008 ppm).9 This difference provides a significant clue to the origin of most aluminum in surface seawater: airborne dust landing in the water.7,10-12 Dust from Africa is the proposed reason why the Atlantic is so much higher in concentration,9,12 while some in shore areas are also elevated due to the input from rivers.

The maximum solubility of aluminum at pH 8.2 in freshwater is about 2.7 ppm.13 That is, at concentrations higher than that, the aluminum will precipitate as amorphous aluminum hydroxide. I expect the solubility to be similar or higher in seawater, where complexation to organics may increase the solubility. Consequently, the solubility in both the oceans and in aquaria (as will be seen below) is apparently not typically limited by the solubility of aluminum hydroxide itself.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Will a poly filter pull aluminum out? What colour does the filter change to?

The polyfilter people say yes and red. I don't know what forms that means, however, or whether it applies to seawater.

 

[Lasse]

Thanks

Sincerely Lasse

 

[edosan]

Checking the web I found this:

 

[jason2459]

Checking the web I found this:

Well, the manufacturer does say it contains Al. Just they say it will not leach into the water.

Though if it does many assume it does not effect anything. Some believe it effects their soft corals. A few believe it does more.

Next week I'll collect another sample of water and send off to Triton. If it shows over 2.00 ug/L then I believe its from the Marine pure. If its not above that level I think its pretty safe to say the block leaches very little if any. Assuming a month is a long enough time for the block to start leaching. I'm assuming it will.

No, we still wont know if it effects corals or soft corals definitively or what form of Al. But I can say my yellow Fiji leather has not been happy since putting the block in.

Initially I had many odd events which I contribute mainly to an increase in bacterial population which could also effect the leather in a negative way. Past couple weeks those changes have subsided and everything else looks normal. The yellow fiji still hasn't seen full polyp extension and shrinks a lot more then it used to.

Tonight is the best I've seen it though and has ok polyp extension and better then it has since putting in the block.

Will take pics soon and post.

 

[jason2459]

Double post

 

[jason2459]

Overall looking ok

Some areas looking better

Then others. Still nubby and flat

 

[jason2459]

Last day. I'll collect a sample late tonight and get it sent out tomorrow to Triton. Good timing as it looks like they just went through a lot of changes causing a large backup on getting tests done and a couple weeks of samples have been rejected from being tested. I'm one of them with a sample I sent in for a salt mix parameter testing. Luckily they are getting back on track.

 

[jason2459]

Interesting. Very interesting.

 

[jason2459]

Yes, interesting.

First, comment on corals. All look good. Fiji Leather has been opening up more. Still not eye popping wow it looks great today looks but better then it did 2 weeks ago or even last week. Bubble tips still look great. Mushrooms look like themselves and I never noticed any negative impact on them.

But

When I started this thread I stated

"I'm not going to see how it effects my nutrients (N and P). "

But

It has impacted my Nitrates or something has. Not that I have nitrate issues right now but they have actually increased to detectable levels. And detectable levels higher then I've had before. I was not expecting this.

To clarify, my nitrates have increased but not to levels that worry me at all. Just the fact that they have increased and to a number higher then I've tested before is just interesting and unexpected.


I actually like the level they've increased to as I have always thought they were to low and I feed a lot already.

So, the numbers.

Tested tonight just my phosphates and nitrates. Triton will tell us the rest.

Phosphates:
5ppb Phosphorus or 0.01533ppm Phosphates converted.

That is an expected result. My phosphates have varied between 0.03 to 0.08 for many years which I contributed to vinegar dosing mainly as what helped keep them in that range. Then I switched to a vinegar and vodka mix (690:310) and the phosphates were driven down even lower and stayed under .03ppm.

You can see here when i converted to the vinegar/vodka mix right after that up and down line when I did a phosphate kit shootout.

Nitrates:
2.5mg/L

I've ran into several rounds of phosphate issues through out my reefing experience. I don't ever remember having a nitrate one. My nitrates are driven down primarily by my carbon dosing and even with the vinegar only my nitrates have usually been undetectable and well under 5.

Tonight is the first time in a while I've seen over 1.

I don't know why. I assume my bacterial population is actually much greater then before as well. As indicated by the large pH drop shortly after adding the block that I believe was due to a large increase of bacteria. Only thing I can think of is the dreaded terms detritus trap and nitrate factory. I do NOT think thats the case here. My entire sump is a detritus trap. I love detritus and have never touched it. Its home and food to such an amazing biodiversity. (Seen it up very close and personal as seen in my "our tanks biology up close" thread.)

So, no idea why this happened

Tested and cross checked between salifert, red sea, and kinda Nyos (hard to distinguish between off white and off white something like 1 or 3).


After all that, vials have been filled and ready to ship off to Triton.

 

[FranklinDattein]

Here is my first Triton results. Al is high at 132ug/l.
As I mentioned before, this tank has been running on Marine Pure and Seachem Phosguard(Aluminum Oxide), for more than 2 years and it hosts a 5y old leather.
In my case, it isn't possible to determine which product is leaching Al, but I guess it is both.

Also, it is a good indication that Aluminum isn't so bad on Leather corals. However, it could still be causing damage - like slow growth - and I just don't notice because it is a coral that is sitting in a corner and doesn't receive any love.