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I've drained 200G tanks full of coral to remove fish for treatment in these cases. It's definitely not fun. I regret none of it, my worry-free tank life right now for my 500G and 180G tanks were well worth it.
Living with ich isn't a huge deal for many fish, but the other parasites pose a different and much greater threat. Eventually, velvet is likely to make it in the tank and what worked to manage "ich" may well fail.
SOME experience success with diatom filters, stocking hardy fish species that aren't comparatively susceptible to parasites, and UV sterilizers and the like. I've not had success with UV, and I keep lots of tangs and beautiful, more difficult to keep species and thus this wasn't my method of choice. I probably keep 40-50 fish in various tanks, with half of them being tangs, angels, butterflies, etc. I'm glad I made the choice I did. Good luck with whatever you choose.
Where did you get your fish quarantined? There are very few good places for this. It also won't help if the current inhabitants didn't go through the same treatments. Sorry for the trouble.Yea just unfortunately getting all the stuff to set up a QT or hospital tank isn't in the cards right now. The wife just got her hours and pay cut by half for probably 90 days and there's a chance it happens to me too. So we just need to find some budget friendly meds that can help keep it managed until things get back to normal. Once that happens we will work towards setting up a hospital tank. I'm not too worried about a QT setup cause we get our stuff only after it's been QT'd already. Plus we have limited available space right now lol.
A local company/person that does QT after livestock is shipped to them. I have complete faith in their process, there's no telling where this may have come from. And I'm not 100% sure it is Ich just trying to have some stuff on hand in case it is to manage it. Until things have returned to normal and we can set up a hospital tank for situations like this.Where did you get your fish quarantined? There are very few good places for this. It also won't help if the current inhabitants didn't go through the same treatments. Sorry for the trouble.
I hate to say this but I disagree with this. Fish in the sea are living constantly with all the same diseases and parasites that they are getting in a lot of tanks. The reason we are getting the Corona Virus is that it is a new disease that probably jumped from rats, bats or duck billed platypuses, I don't know so we have no immunity.
Bubonic Plague was another disease that jumped from rodents. (it was actually Gerbels and not rats, but also from China)
Anyway, the Plague was a new disease and we had no immunity from it just as Corona Virus is new to Humans and us.
Descendants of People who survived the Plague are now immune to Aids. (All Plague victims did not die from a bacteria as some forms of Plague deaths were viral. Their HMOs couldn't tell the difference)
Anyway, be it as it may, our fish in the sea are immune from ich, velvet and almost everything else, if they were not, that flounder I had for dinner last night would have died way before I ate him as fish eat parasites and diseases with every meal as most fish don't cook their food.
When this virus passes, many of us will have some immunity to it for a certain length of time but we are not normally encountering it on a daily basis which is why no one is immune except for maybe the people who recovered.
No one in the new world was immune from Small Pox which is why most of them died when Europeans came here. The Europeans didn't "all" die from it and they didn't look that clean and healthy to me. It took months to get here in a filthy ship filled with rats and rancid water and food. The only thing they had going for them on those sailing ships was that there was no RAP music.
But the Europeans had some immunity because everyone was exposed to it and after a lot of them died, the rest didn't.
My theory is that our fish need some exposure to all the diseases they encountered in the sea and if they have that, they will never get sick. I think my 50 year old tank kind of proves that to some extent.
You will find no older "Quarantined" tank and the reason for that is what I just said throughout this thread.
There are actually no old quarantined tanks. Think about that.
But while you are thinking, quarantine yourself and stay away from everyone for now.
Descendants of People who survived the Plague are now immune to Aids. (All Plague victims did not die from a bacteria as some forms of Plague deaths were viral.
Hey Paul, a little off topic but what worms are you feeding your fish and how do you grow them? I'm interested in feeding live foods. Thanks in advance!
I grow and feed white worms. You grow them in wet potting soil and with just some bread and yogurt in one shoebox you get more worms than you can use.
You google White worm culture and you get a few hundred worms in an envelope for about $15.00
It takes about a month before you get enough of them to start to feed and maybe 2 months where you can harvest a lot of them.
They need to be kept in the 70s so in Florida you may have to put them in a cooler with a small freezer pack.
Mine are about 75 degrees.
I feed a few worms almost every day and as you know, I can't participate in these disease or quarantine discussions because that is a non issue for me. I think the bacteria in the worms is one of the main things that allows me to do that.
I added a copperband buterfly a couple of days ago. Right from the bag to my tank like I have been doing for half a century.
My last one died after 10 years and I also have an ich magnet hippo tang. In the past years I have kept almost every type of tang, I just find them boring.
Good luck and stay safe.
Ich eradication vs. Ich management
The purpose of this article is to discuss the pros & cons of ich eradication and ich management, and present the best methods for implementing each.
Ich eradication - Simply put, this method means doing everything possible to keep ich out of your tank. That can be accomplished by establishing & maintaining a strict quarantine (QT) protocol as outlined here: How to Quarantine. It is very important to QT each & every fish, including your very first one, if you wish to avoid ich.
Why practice ich eradication? Once introduced by an infected specimen, and so long as there are always fish to feed on, ich can survive in your tank almost indefinitely. The only way to get it out is to starve it out by going fallow (fishless) for 76 days. The parasites continuously attack (feed on) fish, which does damage and can even kill them. I personally chose ich eradication, because I got tired of “ich management” being a part of my aquarium husbandry. There’s enough to do in a reef aquarium on a daily basis without adding “battle fish parasites” to the list.
The cons of ich eradication are somewhat obvious. In addition to having to setup & maintain a QT, not being able to add your newly purchased fish directly to the display tank (DT) can be a major buzz kill. QT does zap some of the “thrill” out of the hobby.
What if I already have ich in my tank? There is no easy way of dealing with this. You have to catch all of your fish, and QT/treat using copper, Chloroquine phosphate, tank transfer method or hyposalinity. More detailed information on all the aforementioned treatment options can be found here: Treatment Options Index.
The DT itself must be left fallow (fishless) for 76 days to starve out any remaining parasites. Corals/inverts cannot host, so they can be left in the DT during the fallow period. You must be wary of cross contamination during the fallow period, avoiding anything wet (including hands) when going from QT to DT (or vice versa). Aerosol transmission is another concern, so it’s best to house your QT at least 10 feet away from the DT. More info on that here: Aerosol transmission.
Remember there is no “reef safe” ich treatment that actually works! Those may (or may not) help fish with their symptoms; but no tea tree oil from India or garlic extract or any other herbal/natural “medication” will completely eradicate ich from a tank. The day someone does finally develop an effective “reef safe” treatment, we are all going to hear about it, and the inventor will become a millionaire.
Ich management - This method involves just managing the presence of the disease, instead of eradicating it. You know you have ich in your tank or are willing to risk it by forgoing QT. Despite how strongly I advocate ich eradication these days, I employed ich management for almost 30 years. I found the key to success was keeping the overall number of parasites down, while simultaneously boosting the fishes’ immune systems to deal with the parasites that survived. Some ways to accomplish this include:
A fine example of utilizing proper nutrition to keep the bugs away is Paul Baldassano’s (aka Paul B) over 40 year old, 100 gallon aquarium. Paul keeps his fish in “breeding condition” by feeding live foods (ex. blackworms) and soaking food in Omega-3 fish oil. Most of his livestock live to be a ripe old age and some of his fish spawn on a regular basis. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paul and highly recommend this article written by him: Reefkeeping Magazine - Paul Baldassano?s Reef - 40 Years in the Making.
- Utilizing the biggest UV sterilizer you can fit/afford. While a UV will probably never “zap” all of the free swimmers (theronts), it will keep their numbers down so the fish can better cope with the ones remaining. A diatom filter can also be used to remove free swimmers.
- Boost your fishes’ immune systems through proper nutrition. This means feeding a wide range of live & frozen nutritious foods, not just flake & pellets. Feed nori, as that is loaded with vitamins. Also, soak fish food in vitamin supplements such as Selcon, Zoecon and Vita-Chem to further enhance health. Omega 3 & 6 fish oils are great (and cheap) soaking alternatives.
- Stay on top of your aquarium husbandry! Maintain pristine water conditions, stable parameters and avoid fish that are likely to fight. Poor water quality, fluctuating parameters and aggression from other fish may “stress” a fish out, lower his immune system and make him more susceptible to parasitic infestation.
- Choose your fish wisely. Avoid “ich magnets” i.e. fish with thin mucous coats such as tangs. Clownfish, anthias, wrasses and even mandarins are better choices as those have thick slime coats protecting their skin from attacking parasites. Also, only buy from reputable sources, and don’t buy fish that look diseased/damaged, won’t eat or who share water with diseased fish.
- No discussion of “ich management” can be had without mentioning garlic. This topic is often debated, and I honestly don’t know whether or not soaking garlic in fish food helps with ich. I have seen it work as an appetite stimulant, so that might help right there. However, I’m less confident in its ability to boost a fish’s immune system. Another theory is that garlic leaches back out of a fish’s pores, and that makes the fish an undesirable host for parasites. While there is no scientific evidence supporting anything beneficial, studies have been done linking long-term garlic use with liver damage in fish. Therefore, I use garlic sparingly.
Pros & cons - One upside of practicing ich management is obvious: not having to QT. I get it; I really do. It’s exciting to make the rounds of the local fish shops, finding that “perfect fish” and then adding him to your DT. After all, having fun is what a hobby is supposed to be all about. What’s fun about adding a fish to a bare bottom QT with PVC elbows?
However, the downsides are numerous. All it takes is one “stressor event” to undo years of ich management. By stressor event, I mean something like a prolonged power loss, heater sticks, fish fighting, etc., anything that stresses a fish out and lowers his immune system. Sometimes ich capitalizes on these events by overwhelming a fish’s immune system, and fish start dying. Also, secondary bacterial infections are common in fish afflicted with ich, due to their already compromised immune system. All it takes is a cut or an open wound left by an ich trophont. These bacterial diseases sometimes prove to be far deadlier than ich itself, especially if caused by a gram negative bacterium.
Ich management is more of a “learn as you go” process, which is why experienced hobbyists often fare better than newbies. For me, ich management just got to be too stressful. The stress of seeing the spots, wondering if today was going to be the day it finally caught up with me, or if the fish that just died was a result of ich or something else. Losing too many fish under “mysterious” circumstances is what finally led me to choose ich eradication.
Update on this?@Humblefish we possibly spotted some Ich on our sailfin tang. If it is Ich, it's very minor right now. Like a total of maybe 5 white spots on his body.
We are unfortunately not set up to QT right now, all our live stock is normally brought to us having already passed through a rigorous QT procedure. And we don't have a hospital tank available. With the lock down, travelling around to try and buy all the stuff needed to set up one of those is out of the question (not too mention the financial impact of that). Are the meds you would recommend us trying in the tank itself while this case is still very mild?
I know your strongly recommend ich eradication, it's just not in the cards for us till things get closer back to normal.
We have basically a FOWLR although we do have one Duncan coral. If we lose some of the inverts like snails and crabs, that's not the end of the world. Hopefully whatever meds we can try don't kill the pistol shrimp or horseshoe crab. But in the end, suppressing the Ich is more important.
I should say I went ahead and ordered from AAP after reading their articles from your meds to keep on hands thread. Ordered the greenex and marine wonder shells. Just didn't know if there's something else we could try that may get here before those do since they couldn't be ordered on Amazon or like Petco/Petsmart for curbside pickup.
Update on this?
Sincerely Lasse