Ich or velvet?

[foxt]

So, I have religiously QT'd every fish I have added to my DT, holding fish for a minimum of 30 days, observing for symptoms, dosing prazi for flukes, but holding off on copper (I can not get CP).

My last few additions to the tank have been five butterflies - 2 pyramids, a black zoster, and 2 heniochus diphreutes.

They've been in the tank, with a collection of wrasses, 2 clowns, some gobies, anthias, and genicanthus, for about 3 weeks.

The last couple of days, I have started noticing spots on just the 'flies. I think it is mostly on fins at this point, but I may be seeing spots on the body of a few now. I must have missed something in QT. Question is, what? The spots look too small for ich, and nothing in the tank is flashing or scratching, so I am fearing that it is the onset of velvet. I am carefully watching everyone else in the tank, nothing yet. What do you think this is?

 

[germs101]

Velvet. It's symptoms are not the same for every case. I have been late to diagnose it before because of that and lost all the fish in qt. I now am only qt new additions with Coppersafe (purchased on Amazon btw). Sorry

 

[foxt]

I am having a hard time catching fish at this point, but want to at least get those with visible infections in to a fresh water and acriflavine bath.

I've tried to find a guide, or pictures, on what to look for under a scope for velvet or ich. I must be missing something, because I am not finding much on this, and I would have thought there would be something on here about it. I can take a scrape before I do the freshwater bath, but I do not know what I would be looking at. Does anyone have a link to pictures, etc, as to how to use a scope to differentiate between parasites?

 

[Maritimer]

Those spots ... the ones I can make out on the fins of your fast-moving Heniochus ... are a little big for velvet (am I seeing smaller ones on their bodies?), but if you treat the infection as velvet, you'll take care of ich as well.

I wouldn't know where to look for microscope images of either ich (protozoan) or velvet (dinoflagellate), but @melypr1985, @ngoodermuth or @Humblefish might.

~Bruce

 

[germs101]

It's one or the other but the treatment will be the same. Velvet will wipe out super quickly. Best of luck.

 

[Mark Derail]

Exactly what I had, lost a few fish. A phosphate spike seemed to bring it out.

I used Cupramine in the QT, starting low and building up, but didn't even get up to 0.25 - new additions that I put right in the QT tank when the copper was at-below 0.10, died within 2 days.
Now the copper is at 0.10 and going down, as I'm doing bi-weekly WC's of 50%.

However the fish with the white spots, all gone, even with such a low concentration of copper. Note that baby fish from the LFS, put into the QT tank with copper, did not fare well.
I though that 0.10 would be ok, no such luck.

I should have made a 3rd QT tank w/o copper, kept them there for a month.

 

[Jahalu]

Hey, I followed your earlier thread where you diligently cured that suspected bacterial infection on your butterfly, and I was so bummed to see this happen to your DT now. Just wanted to give you a thumbs up for effort and for staying the course. Keep us posted on the process. Cheering you on!

 

[foxt]

Hey, I followed your earlier thread where you diligently cured that suspected bacterial infection on your butterfly, and I was so bummed to see this happen to your DT now. Just wanted to give you a thumbs up for effort and for staying the course. Keep us posted on the process. Cheering you on!

Thanks.

I am frustrated by whatever it is I did to miss this in QT, but it is what it is at this point. I like to learn from my mistakes, so I will have to figure that out. It is most likely something that came in on some of the fish that I did not put through copper. They all spent at least 30 days in QT, and nothing went in the tank unless it was free of behavioral or visible signs of disease (the butterflies in my other thread, as an example).

I know that these parasites can live in the gills, and may not show, and that must be what happened here. I was operating under the understanding, though, that at some point in the 30 days, I would see scratching, or some other sign of an issue. Like I said, nothing went in the tank unless it was free of those symptoms.

Still trying to catch fish, and I will need to start taking out rocks if I can't get them out any other way.

 

[GHsaltie]

Have you lost any fish at this point? What is the timeline for when the symptoms started popping up? Do you know if any of the fish you got were kept in subtherapuetic levels of copper before purchase? What and when was the last wet thing added?

 

[Jahalu]

Yeah, I hear you. I had a similar thing happen a couple of years ago. I had a flasher wrasse I qtd but did not treat with copper, and well...you know the rest of the story. I had some losses (including the wrasse) & some survivors. Went fallow...the usual routine. Now I just qt one fish at a time. Meticulous TTM is my preferred method these days. Takes forever, but it's all my nerves can handle. Good luck catching everyone! Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[foxt]

Have you lost any fish at this point?

No. At the moment, the only fish that are showing any symptoms are the butterflies and the bannerfish. And those symptoms are just the spots - no heavy breathing, flashing, swimming in to power heads; they are all eating vigorously, and I am stressing them out chasing them around the tank.

What is the timeline for when the symptoms started popping up?

I started noticing the spots on Tuesday evening, right after I vacuumed the sandbed and I did some overdue cleaning of the glass (there were some places on the sides of the tank that were slightly encrusted with coralline algae). At first, I thought (hoped) that it was perhaps some of the stuff that I had sent into the water column just stuck to the fish, but I ruled that out on Wednesday when it was on just the butterflies, and it had gotten worse.

Do you know if any of the fish you got were kept in subtherapuetic levels of copper before purchase?

I don't really know. My only source of fish that have made it in to the DT has been Divers Den, LiveAquaria, and Pacific Island Aquatics (not blaming any of them). Every fish that went in to the DT spent at least 30 days in QT. Some were treated with copper at therapeutic levels for 30 days; some of the more delicate or finicky fish (like the sand sleeper wrasses or the madarin) just got observation.

What and when was the last wet thing added?

It was the two yellow pyramids on 10/18. About 6 days later, I noticed the spots on the fins of the bannerfish first, then also noticed it on the pyramids. Not sure how long they have before they die from this, but if it is indeed velvet, I know that time is of the essence.

BTW, it's a 72x30x26 tank, with lots of rock, which is what is making this difficult to net the fish. I've now resorted to blocking off sections of the tank with eggcrate, hoping to slowly isolate the fish so that I can nab them.

 

[foxt]

Well, all of the fish that are showing symptoms are in a QT now. They each got a fw bath for 5 mins, then an acriflavin bath for 80 mins (2/3 tsp per gal of ruby reef rally). Then on to a 40g QT that is fresh, with 80mg/gal of CP (which is ebay CP, and I am crossing my fingers because I don't have time to ramp copper up slowly if this is velvet). Also, I started a course of kanaplex + metro + furan2.

I will get some pictures tomorrow, hopefully everyone will still be alive in the morning (it's like having a sick kid).

Question - if the treatment so far is having an effect, what will I see in terms of progress? If it is ich, I know what to look for. First time potential velvet infection for me - what visible signs shall I look for to see if the treatment is having an effect? Is the response as rapid as it is for ich?

 

[Maritimer]

In either case - ich or velvet - all the fish in your tank have potentially contracted the parasite, they're just not showing symptoms yet. The tomonts will be sleeping, encysted, on your liverock, and can reinfect fish out to six weeks for velvet; 72 days for ich.

As the parasites leave the fish, you'll start to see the dots disappear, and the fish should perk up as well. By the end of a week, the fish should be clear, as the CP will wipe out theronts / dinospores that hatch from any cysts in the tank, and they won't be able to reinfect your fish. With both CP and antibiotics in the water, make sure to keep aeration up.

~Bruce

 

[foxt]

Thanks Bruce.

In either case - ich or velvet - all the fish in your tank have potentially contracted the parasite, they're just not showing symptoms yet. The tomonts will be sleeping, encysted, on your liverock, and can reinfect fish out to six weeks for velvet; 72 days for ich.

I know I will need to take them all out (ouch) and let the tank sit fallow. I'm waiting to see if I can definitively determine if it is ich or velvet though, so that I know if I am in for 42 or 76 days of having my basement filled with QT. If I can not clearly determine which it is, I will go fallow for 75 days, it's just something I'd prefer not to do if I can be sure I don't need to. The extra 30 days of maintenance, on the heels of 6 months of slowly QTing each of these guys, is just a bit daunting - but I will do whatever I have to do.

As the parasites leave the fish, you'll start to see the dots disappear, and the fish should perk up as well. By the end of a week, the fish should be clear, as the CP will wipe out theronts / dinospores that hatch from any cysts in the tank, and they won't be able to reinfect your fish. With both CP and antibiotics in the water, make sure to keep aeration up.

So velvet progresses in treatment the same way as ich, then? I am looking for two things with this first batch in treatment - what is it? and is my ebay CP going to do the job, or do I need to step up my search for a local vet.

Given that the other fish don't show signs of infection yet, I am hoping that I have more time to ramp them up in copper, but for most of them, I would prefer to handle this with CP. I do have many wrasses, though, so there is copper in my future. The CP treatment just seems easier and healthier for the fish (except the wrasses) and I want to try to take advantage of it as much as possible.

My thoughts are, if I can find CP, I may just get two big livestock bins from Tractor Supply and run one on copper for those fish sensitive to CP (like the wrasses), and put everyone else in CP.

I avoided use of copper in QT with the sand sleepers because I did QT them with substrate, and that messes with the copper (absorption, etc). My guess is that, even though I did 30 days, etc, I am now paying the price. I really need to determine if this is ich, or velvet. I'd prefer to TTM the sand sleepers, but that won't work if it is velvet.

 

[4FordFamily]

Unfortunately, this is why we recommend treating all fish prophylacticly in copper or CP. Fish that don’t show symptoms often carry ich or velvet, wrasse especially.

Spots seem too numerous for ich, but too large for velvet typically, I agree. But I do think it’s one or the other. In either event, you’ll need to remove all fish and treat in copper or cp for full 30 days at therapeutic levels.

Sorry, I know it’s no fun

 

[ngoodermuth]

From my own experience, I think it's most likely ich you have there. If I were you I'd go the whole 76 days to be safe :/

 

[GHsaltie]

I agree with @ngoodermuth, I think it’s ich. Unfortunately the CP you have is not going to be sufficient enough to get rid of the parasite. Best source is from this place http://www.diamondbackdrugs.com/

 

[foxt]

Thanks all.

I tried taking pictures today, but the fish are all skittish, and my cell phone camera isn't cutting it.

I can see a response to the CP (ebay as it is - I know I need to get the pharma grade stuff, but I've called every vet in the book and they won't help me) after about 12 hours already. I am dosed at 2x the recommended 40mg/gal, so perhaps that is helping me out? I am seeing what I would expect to see after treating for ich - most of the spots have already dropped off. Most obviously on the fins, I can see cloudy areas where the parasites were attached. I never saw any scratching, heavy breathing, flashing etc, not once. That, in my admittedly limited experience, is a little odd for ich, but perhaps I just caught it before it began to irritate the fish to that point.

If anyone has a link to how to tell the difference between ich and velevet with a microscope, I would appreciate it. If I am sure it is ich, I will TTM the sand sleepers instead of running them in a bare bottom tank for 30 days with copper.

The sad news for me was that I was so preoccupied with what I was doing last night, I forgot to put a screen back on one of my other QT tanks (I have been in the final stages of stocking this "new" 220g), and my diamond goby jumped ship last night. Crushing, not only because that is my fault, but also because Weds was the day I was planning on moving him to the DT, and I held off because of this new development. Ugh!

 

[foxt]

Quick update: all of the fish I have in treatment in QT are doing well, still eating, etc. I only see slight signs of infestation on a few of them now, so either the CP is working, or the lifecycle of the parasite is leaving them alone for the moment.

I don't see any signs of infestation on any of the other fish in the DT at the moment. That doesn't mean that I can skip treating them, but it is giving me a sense of relief in that I have time to figure out the best way to go about this (how many QT tanks, catching the rest of the fish, etc).

My basement is always cold in the winter, and if I am going to leave the DT fallow for 76 days, it will be January when I can return the fish to the DT. I think I will get the fish through treatment in several smaller individual tanks that I have on hand, and then put one large tub in my boiler room (warmest spot that has room) to house the fish for the fallow duration after they are done with treatment. I never had any aggression in the DT, so I am not expecting to have to be careful about the order in which I introduce fish into this tub - but I am interested in thoughts from people that have done this before?

 

[Maritimer]

Ich:

Velvet:

If there are two fish who might be an issue, think about reintroducing them at the same time. The dynamics can change with a tank move.

~Bruce