Ich or velvet?

[cmcoker]

This fish, paracheilinus flavianalis, arrived to lfs on Wednesday, ate readily and looked pretty good so I purchased but was not able to bring home til Friday evening.
Saturday he was hiding as wrasses do, but would pop his head out to grab mysis.
Today he comes out whenever I add food, eating like a pig. However i noticed white spots today, I admittedly did not get good looks at him yesterday since I was out most the evening and he was shy.
Just wondering how fast I should ramp copper. I've added about 20% of the dose so far.

Doesn't seemed to be to stressed with breathing or anything.

 

[Big G]

#reefsquad

 

[melypr1985]

I'm not able to see much in the pictures unfortunately. If he's still eating and not breathing heavily, then take a couple days to bring it up. However, if he is "covered" in spots, begins breathing heavily ect... then bring the copper up in 24 hours.

 

[cmcoker]

I'm not able to see much in the pictures unfortunately. If he's still eating and not breathing heavily, then take a couple days to bring it up. However, if he is "covered" in spots, begins breathing heavily ect... then bring the copper up in 24 hours.

Thanks, I edited one of the pics hopefully it's a little better. There is a few white dots on and near the dorsal fin, as well as a couple near the caudal fin. Plan to add another 10% of the dose tonight, I will be gone to work from 6am to 7pm tomorrow unfortunately. I'll be home more Tuesday so hopefully he doesn't tank whem I'm not around ..

 

[cmcoker]

Other image uploaded through tapatalk, just checking if tapatalk is downsizing image. This one uploaded through the mobile site

 

[Big G]

Good picture. Sure looks like Ich. Larger more oval in shape and fewer. Should be able to ramp up the copper slower as Meredith suggested.

 

[Humblefish]

Good picture. Sure looks like Ich. Larger more oval in shape and fewer. Should be able to ramp up the copper slower as Meredith suggested.

+1 Agree; looks like ich to me as well

 

[melypr1985]

Yup, those pictures were much better.

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree, increase copper over a couple more days. With wrasse, the more tiny doses you add to get there the better

 

[cmcoker]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Taking it slow, just about to 0.5 since I was away most of today. Im home most of tomorrow and will be able to do a bit more over the day, gonna try to get over 1.0ppm tomorrow and 2.0 by Wednesday or Thursday. That's the plan anyway.

 

[cmcoker]

Ok, got copper safe to therapeutic level Thursday evening, so call in Friday, Feb 2nd, day 1.

Maybe one more spot appeared after starting copper, but he is currently spot free and has been since Thursday.

Today when I got home and checked on him, he was at the front glass, he looked to be head twitching. He was spazzing out about it, but when he noticed me it subsided. I feed him often when home, so he knows food is coming when I'm around by now.

I have often seen him flashing the glass [flasher wrasse flashing, full wrassy displays; not ich flashing], so guess it's possible he was going after his reflection. I tried recording him, but he didn't do the head twitch like he had. He did yawn twice in the 4 minutes I was recording, he seemed a little freaked with the phone out but I use the flashlight on my phone to check the ammonia badge and he always hides from it.. I'll post the video, in a bit. I'm thinking flukes, it is a wrasse after all.

He is still eating well, and acting fine otherwise.

So, I have general cure coming Wednesday anyway, was planning on dosing after copper. The qt is already a little hazy, been doing 10% copper dosed water changes every few days to try and help with that. Ammonia is zero.

Should I go ahead and dose the general cure when it gets here? Or alternative ideas?

My original plan was to start with general cure and then do prophalactic copper, timetable got changed when the spots appeared. I'm just concerned about mixing meds.

 

[Trickman2]

Skip the copper, seachem focus and metronidazole.

 

[cmcoker]

Link to video:

Maybe a head twitch around 23 seconds?

 

[cmcoker]

Skip the copper, seachem focus and metronidazole.

Why would I skip the copper? the fish has ich..

 

[Trickman2]

Why would I skip the copper? the fish has ich..

Copper is harmful to fish and corals. Metronidazole or seachem version now called metroplex is very effective in treating Ick. After using it for many years my issues with horrible Ick has never been a problem. You can do both but feeding metronidazole combined with focus is good solid treatment. Copper sucks to deal with and is not great for your fish either. Metronidazole is actually used to treat human bacterial infections.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metronidazole

 

[cmcoker]

I'm familiar with Metronidazole, I have use it to treat intestinal parasites before. I have had good success using copper as part of my quarantine process, I test daily and know it is effective. The fish is in a quarantine tank with no other livestock.

I have used Tank transfer method in the past as a chemical free option but my work schedule won't permit me to do that (and have a happy wife) .

I don't believe metronidazole to be a proven treatment to eradicate ich, maybe it helps with managing it I don't know, but I'd prefer to stay with a proven method.

Thanks for the input.

Happy reefing.

 

[Humblefish]

Metronidazole won't remain active in the water long enough to achieve 100% eradication of parasite free swimmers. Biofilm, heterotrophic bacteria, etc. will degrade it before you can safely administer the next dosage to keep levels at therapeutic. Copper, a poison and not a true medication, is not susceptible to biodegradation. Even something "bad" for the fish has its upsides, which is why copper has endured as a viable treatment option for parasites over the years.

 

[Humblefish]

^^ Just to add; while metro is not a suitable treatment option for ich/velvet, IT IS a good treatment for brook & uronema. This is because those two particular parasites have a direct life cycle (meaning it lives, feeds and reproduces on the fish), and there is no tomont or encysted stage to worry about. It is this prolonged (and unpredictable) encysted stage which is to blame for metronidazole not being 100% successful at eradicating ich/velvet (and other parasites with the encysted stage.)

 

[cmcoker]

^^ Just to add; while metro is not a suitable treatment option for ich/velvet, IT IS a good treatment for brook & uronema. This is because those two particular parasites have a direct life cycle (meaning it lives, feeds and reproduces on the fish), and there is no tomont or encysted stage to worry about. It is this prolonged (and unpredictable) encysted stage which is to blame for metronidazole not being 100% successful at eradicating ich/velvet (and other parasites with the encysted stage.)

Thanks @Humblefish, the metronidazole discussion kinda overtook my question, I think he has flukes as well, I added a video and posted notes on his behavior, post #11 above..

 

[Trickman2]

^^ Just to add; while metro is not a suitable treatment option for ich/velvet, IT IS a good treatment for brook & uronema. This is because those two particular parasites have a direct life cycle (meaning it lives, feeds and reproduces on the fish), and there is no tomont or encysted stage to worry about. It is this prolonged (and unpredictable) encysted stage which is to blame for metronidazole not being 100% successful at eradicating ich/velvet (and other parasites with the encysted stage.)

Sorry to Hi-jack the thread, in my experience (24+ years) I have found that feeding metronidazole to newly added fish a successful proactive method of preventing ich. Eradication of everything with a poison is not always the best option either. Nothing is 100 percent successful in Eradication of anything besides death. Think about cancer and the autoimmune conditions that use chemotherapy and autoimmune drugs eradicate your immune system? Copper is a old school flawed method and should be saved as a last ditch attempt. Can you ever successful eradicate it anyways? Diseases are stress, environmental related induced. We tend to treat the symptoms and assume destroying everything is good strategy ( think antibiotics). So I am going to respectfully disagree with you both...Copper is a short sided method and the cost to the health of the fish is more than you think. The real issue at hand is due to stress, water conditions and a compromised immune system of the fish (Copper compromises the fish immune system also). The issue is compounded by isolation in aquariums allowing the diseases to spread and grow into plague like proportions that then overwhelms other healthy fishes natural defenses. This is why I think metronidazole is effective as it controls the outbreak from turning into plague like proportions. My goal is to get the new fish stabilized and to allow there natural defenses to do their jobs (with a little help). Some food for thought before you go forth and eradicate everything. Time and a place for all options but copper will and always be a last ditch attempt for me. After Reading another thread by Dr. Humble he is a eradication man and I get it. Just not for me...Good luck.

Happy Fish keeping and good luck in the fight.