Ich without treatment

[MnFish1]

A good thing is that many of the fish we purchase from reputable sources probably are not carriers of disease in the first place. When someone successfully adds a new fish to their tank without medicated QT, the likelihood is that the fish was not a carrier of the parasite in the first place. The tank doesn't have the ability to immediately to transfer some magical immunity to each fish added.

What are the odds any individual fish is a carrier? Way too many variables to be able to make a reasonable guess. Could be 0% if the LFS or Mail Order Vendor follows very rigid protocols or 100% if the fish was visibly infected when purchased.

Over the past several years I have purchased a number of fish from several different Mail Order Vendors. I have followed the medicated protocol recommended on this forum. Over that period, I have not had a case of either ich or velvet. Fish that expired while in quarantine died from obvious starvation or bullying. Fish that survived were successfully moved to the display tank.

Does that mean my QT process eliminated ich and velvet? I have no way of knowing, since the fish may not have been infected in the first place. Likewise, every fish I acquired may have been a carrier and the protocols vetted on this website did what was intended.

If I had placed the fish directly into the DT, and later determined the fish had parasites and "needed treatment", I would have faced a nightmare. To take care of the infected fish, to take care of the established tank population that had been exposed, and to keep my tank fallow without harm to my coral would have been a true headache with no guarantee for success.

Like everyone, I want to get new fish into the DT as quickly as possible. For me, the risk of failure and the repercussions does not justify shortcuts. Everyone has to decide for themselves what risk factor is acceptable.

I think this is the situation in a nutshell. The most difficult outcome (besides multiple deaths) is @ErikVR 's situation where he has a large display tank and a disease outbreak. I think we (the Fish Medics) discuss these types of cases at least 2-3 times/day.

Most of the time people have these issues is similar to many of the anecdotes here - I had my fish in the tank for months, never QT'd, feeding well, etc - but I added a 'name that tang' and now many are sick, dying or crashing. Many of the more vocal proponents of QT are those that have had this happen to them - or have read the many many posts from people who have had this happen to them. People have mentioned another reefer who has had a tank for 40+years as an example of 'ich management' however, they ignore the 1000's of new reefers that read those posts and think - oh I can just manage Ich, and subsequently have dead fish.

I think after multiple discussions about this issue with @Lasse, @atoll, @Subsea, and @Paul B that indeed having a tank full of inverts that perhaps eat some parasites, along with a relatively low stocking density can indeed 'work'. I also think a UV would help if it can be maintained and is large enough. If I was forced to start up a new tank - I would use @Lasse 's method - hopefully he will send the link- as I can't find it. The reason - I have years and years of experience and know how to treat/diagnoses disease and treat it if needed. Many new reefers do not.

I do want to repeat a point made earlier. If you have a tank using ich management with presumed parasites and start adding tank-raised fish you may be at higher likelihood for disease, since said fish has no natural immunity.

 

[ErikVR]

Good luck - and keep us updated!!!!

So far no other fish are showing signs. The first two time my blue tang was the first to start rubbing up against rocks a few days before he had visible ich.

The purple tang is back down to 5-6 spots in total. But I’m not counting my chickens just yet because during the last outbreak when it started to clear up, a massive explosion followed a few days later.

 

[EliMelly]

So far no other fish are showing signs. The first two time my blue tang was the first to start rubbing up against rocks a few days before he had visible ich.

The purple tang is back down to 5-6 spots in total. But I’m not counting my chickens just yet because during the last outbreak when it started to clear up, a massive explosion followed a few days later.

Are you feeding live black worms?

 

[ErikVR]

Are you feeding live black worms?

Not yet. Stores closed over the weekend. Will try to find some tomorrow.

Been feeding seaweed extreme pellets. Ocean nutrition pellets. Nori sheets. Frozen mysis and brine shrimp soaked in garlic.

 

[Paul B]

Except for maybe the mysis. I personally wouldn't feed any of those foods as they will do nothing for fish immunity. You really can't practice "Ich Management" with that diet. (I hate the name "Ich Management" as it is actually "natural fish health through normal immunity" .

Just my opinion of course and I am not the God of fish.

 

[ErikVR]

Except for maybe the mysis. I personally wouldn't feed any of those foods as they will do nothing for fish immunity. You really can't practice "Ich Management" with that diet. (I hate the name "Ich Management" as it is actually "natural fish health through normal immunity" .

Just my opinion of course and I am not the God of fish.

Curious to find out your suggestions. My list comes from advice from all stores I’ve been to.

 

[Subsea]

Curious to find out your suggestions. My list comes from advice from all stores I’ve been to.

Who makes money from LFS advice?

with 53 years of Reefing experience, I don’t agree with much that comes from LFS or for that matter “group vote”. Much of what I hear from LFS & Governments is bs.

 

[Paul B]

Curious to find out your suggestions. My list comes from advice from all stores I’ve been to.

I'm sure it does. The stores want to sell you things and those things may not be the best things for your fish but it is great for stores.

If you are looking to get and keep your fish immune they need living gut bacteria in their foods. Nori, Ocean Nutrition seaweed, pellets and brine shrimp will not supply any living gut bacteria. Live worms will and IMO the best food for fish is clams or any shellfish that you can buy either live or fresh and either feed like that or freeze in your own freezer.

Aquarium stores don't sell that and will not suggest it. Clams are also very cheap and will supply exactly what your fish need along with living gut bacteria that will keep your fish immune.

Of course if you are using quarantine and medications that is a different way to keep fish and instead of the fish relying on their own immunity, they rely on you keeping all diseases and parasites out of the tank forever and those foods you are using will be fine.
They may also need medications occasionally, but immune fish do not.

Many of my fish are spawning including some 32 year olds and have never eaten nori, seaweed pellets or garlic. I also have two tangs which normally live over 10 years and contrary to popular belief do not need seaweed.

(I have been keeping fish over 60 years and marine fish for 52 but would not consider myself an expert as no one is)

 

[blecki]

Live worms will and IMO the best food for fish is clams or any shellfish that you can buy either live or fresh and either feed like that or freeze in your own freezer.

Heard this many times (mostly from you) and yet everytime I try it the fish ignore the clam. I suppose my crabs and worms are getting plenty of 'live gut bacteria'. I wonder if products like reef frenzy which contain clams still have some of the good stuff?

 

[Paul B]

Blecki, I would assume some commercial foods will have living gut bacteria but it depends on how old it is, if it has been irradiated (like some foods are) and the temperature they froze it at.

I don't know what kind of fish you have but most fish won't eat clams right out of the shell and it has to be sliced paper thin. Copperbands love its do most fish but if they are used to eating dry foods, they may not know what it is but all fish in the sea will love clam meat and I have never seen any fish, except some pipefish, that won't eat it.

Here are some of my fish eating clams sliced paper thin.



If you want immune fish, like I do, they need the right food and that may not be whats available in a LFS.
I use LRS food as a staple, but I supplement it with live worms and shellfish about once a week.

Immunity won't really work unless you feed some living bacteria and IMO this is the main reason we have disease forums. Unstressed fish, in the correctly set up tank where the fish can get out of our sight and by that I don't mean PVC fittings as fish hate that because it is as far from natural as you can get.

Also we want to feed entire animals like shellfish where the fish get the entire guts as that is where the nutrition is. We don't eat fish guts, but we are not cold blooded fish.

Many people say they use my method and their fish die so they blame the system instead of blaming that they are not feeding correctly. Expensive "quality" food means nothing if it doesn't have guts and living bacteria in it.

Aquascape is just as important as the "correct " food. Remember there is a reason none, not one of my fish had any communicable disease in about 45 years and it is not my good looks.

You can not say that about any fully quarantined tank. It just doesn't happen because if you keep a tank long enough, you are pretty certain to get a parasite in there eventually because parasites are on every fish in the sea.
(yes, I inspected every one of them) Parasites are natural and normal and fish were made to live with them. They keep the fish healthy. OK stop yelling, it's true unless you have a very old, healthy quarantined tank where the fish are dying of old age and spawning. 10 or 15 years is not old, as that is the age of my Grand Daughter.

 

[MnFish1]

Immunity won't really work unless you feed some living bacteria and IMO this is the main reason we have disease forums. Unstressed fish, in the correctly set up tank where the fish can get out of our sight and by that I don't mean PVC fittings as fish hate that because it is as far from natural as you can get.

Also we want to feed entire animals like shellfish where the fish get the entire guts as that is where the nutrition is. We don't eat fish guts, but we are not cold blooded fish.

Many people say they use my method and their fish die so they blame the system instead of blaming that they are not feeding correctly. Expensive "quality" food means nothing if it doesn't have guts and living bacteria in it.

Can't say I can disagree with your experience. However, Freezing often kills many strains of bacteria outright - and especially repeated freeze thaw cycles. There is no evidence that immunity won't work unless you feed living bacteria. Many people have tanks and feed flake food (like me) with an occasional LR frozen food (which contains bacteria not harmed by freezing). However, even flake food (which is usually freeze-dried) has bacteria - and bacteria may survive freeze-drying better than freezing/unfreezing.

My main issue with this method is 1) many people cannot get 'fresh' seafood - most seafood, even if unfrozen on ice in an inland area at the store, have been shipped frozen (at least according to my (supposedly high-end) grocery store. So then to bring it home and re-freeze it may cause a failure. Of course people living on the coast have less issues with this.

From a nutritional standpoint, 'fish guts' are probably the worst thing to feed - since obviously - what in them is what's left over after the organism has utilized much (though not all) of the nutrients. From a bacteria standpoint, I'm not sure that fish guts work the same as human guts (which contain tons of bacteria)

Edit - I'm assuming you're meaning that in the wild, big fish eat entire small fish guts and all - which is different slightly from what you wrote

 

[blecki]

I can get the freshest quahogs possible here. Do you think it matters if they come from brackish water vs ocean water? Fresh in the sense that the animal was alive, in water, about 30 seconds before I paid for it. Doesn't get much fresher than that.

Can occasionally get little neck clams that are still alive. But not reliably. Usually they are bagged and frozen.

And I guess I'll try slicing them up. I was kind of expecting to be able to just drop the shell in with the meat on it.

 

[Paul B]

Mn in the sea fish eat whole fish, guts and all. A fishes liver can be 20% of a fishes weight so fish in the sea get a lot of fish oil. As far as I know there is no fish oil in flakes or freeze dried as fish oil goes bad without refrigeration.
I am sure freezing kills some bacteria. I am not a bacteria expert so I don't know but it doesn't kill all bacteria or else frozen food would last forever, but it doesn't. Dry food lasts forever because if it doesn't need refrigeration there is nothing good in it to go bad. Just like white flour. It doesn't go bad without refrigeration because there is no food value in it. Even ants won't eat it and they will eat anything.

Of course fish will live on flakes, freeze dried, pellets or Cheerios. I can live on dry cereal forever but I am not a fish and fish need oils and living bacteria. I posted links to scientific studies many times on this. Gut bacteria is responsible for almost all immunity in fish and us. We also would not live without living gut bacteria as you can tell from cancer patients that had radiation. They look terrible and feel terrible. They also have no immunity which is why they have to be quarantined, wear a mask and can't get close to anyone without risking a life threatening infection.

Thats gut bacteria that does that. Also of course flake food and dried foods have living bacteria, everything does, but it is not the "correct" gut bacteria that controls immunity.

If this were not true, my tank and all immune tanks would not exist. It is also the reason many quarantined or medicated tanks crash. It is an unnatural way for any living organism to live and those fish are always living on the edge barely surviving because they can not come into contact with any diseases.

I can throw any fish in my tank with any parasites or disease and do all the time. You can't do that in an unnatural quarantined or medicated tank. Why not?

Today I got a pneumonia booster shot. Why did I do that? OK, besides my wife made me go.
Why did we get tetanus shots, measles shots, Covid shots, polio shots etc. It's because we want weak strains of bacteria living in us like nature intended and it doesn't stay in us forever so we need boosters and fish need parasites.

If living with no gut bacteria was good, why don't we take antibiotics every day? I think you know.

 

[JD117]

I definitely feel your pain. The same thing happened to me about 4 days ago. I QTd, ran copper. Put a firefish and rabbit fish in and then 2 days later...boom...ich. I saw about 5 dots on the firefish and I'm debating taking the fish out and into another system. I was thinking about giving up the hobby for a couple of hours haha.

If its any help, I've sat and waited and I haven't seen ich in the last few days. Maybe jt was already in there and the introduction of two fish and my temp swing stressed them out.

My thoughts is I'm going to monitor it and maybe go fallow over the summer when I'm home more. But I do feel your pain. Even when we try and do right it can be unforgiving!

 

[blecki]

Paul there really shouldn't be any bacteria in your vaccine against a virus.

 

[Paul B]

I can get the freshest quahogs possible here. Do you think it matters if they come from brackish water vs ocean

No it doesn't matter. I freeze them myself but don't keep them for many months. They are cheap enough to throw out and I don't use them every day. You can also use mussels which are the cheapest shellfish and snails if you crush them. Earthworms are also great.

I realize that everyone can't get shellfish but I think everyone can get a culture of white worms. (I don't now about China, Tunisia, or Never Never Land) I bought a white worm culture about 15 years ago for about $12.00. I get more worms than I want and I don't have a wine cooler. You can put them in a Styrofoam box and put a small freezer pack in there every day or two. They don't have to be cold, below 75 degrees should be fine.

 

[Paul B]

Paul there really shouldn't be any bacteria in your vaccine against a virus.

I have no idea whats in my vaccine, maybe chicken soup and Vaseline. I have no idea.

 

[MnFish1]

Mn in the sea fish eat whole fish, guts and all. A fishes liver can be 20% of a fishes weight so fish in the sea get a lot of fish oil. As far as I know there is no fish oil in flakes or freeze dried as fish oil goes bad without refrigeration.
I am sure freezing kills some bacteria. I am not a bacteria expert so I don't know but it doesn't kill all bacteria or else frozen food would last forever, but it doesn't. Dry food lasts forever because if it doesn't need refrigeration there is nothing good in it to go bad. Just like white flour. It doesn't go bad without refrigeration because there is no food value in it. Even ants won't eat it and they will eat anything.

Of course fish will live on flakes, freeze dried, pellets or Cheerios. I can live on dry cereal forever but I am not a fish and fish need oils and living bacteria. I posted links to scientific studies many times on this. Gut bacteria is responsible for almost all immunity in fish and us. We also would not live without living gut bacteria as you can tell from cancer patients that had radiation. They look terrible and feel terrible. They also have no immunity which is why they have to be quarantined, wear a mask and can't get close to anyone without risking a life threatening infection.

Thats gut bacteria that does that. Also of course flake food and dried foods have living bacteria, everything does, but it is not the "correct" gut bacteria that controls immunity.

If this were not true, my tank and all immune tanks would not exist. It is also the reason many quarantined or medicated tanks crash. It is an unnatural way for any living organism to live and those fish are always living on the edge barely surviving because they can not come into contact with any diseases.

I can throw any fish in my tank with any parasites or disease and do all the time. You can't do that in an unnatural quarantined or medicated tank. Why not?

Today I got a pneumonia booster shot. Why did I do that? OK, besides my wife made me go.
Why did we get tetanus shots, measles shots, Covid shots, polio shots etc. It's because we want weak strains of bacteria living in us like nature intended and it doesn't stay in us forever so we need boosters and fish need parasites.

If living with no gut bacteria was good, why don't we take antibiotics every day? I think you know.

Fish get gut bacteria from food - true. They also get bacteria from their surroundings. Once their bacterial population is established, unless there is a perturbation, why would it 'leave'? A perturbation could be treating with an antibiotic, etc. At that point, it's probably reasonable to add some kind of probiotic food. See we have an agreement.

My point was one thing - fish immunity against parasites (external) probably has nothing to do with eating 'fish guts'. And - a fish even when newly hatched has an innate immune system that has nothing to do with what they eat, except for the fact that if they are starving they will do much worse when an illness comes alone.

We get tetanus shots, etc to protect against exposure to tetanus. And I know your analogy is fish need exposure to parasites to maintain immunity. However, I know of no evidence that clams or whole fish have every strain of parasite known so there is no way to guarantee repeated immunity - OR that eating a parasite confers immunity as compared to getting an active infection. So here is my analogy. We need tetanus shots True. However, not many people take daily probiotics or eat raw chicken to make sure their 'gut bacteria' is in line. Not many dogs eat raw foods (though there are some) - and we don't see huge differences in parasite numbers, etc.

Lastly, IF a person removes parasites from their tank, and their animals will no longer be exposed to those items, there would be no reason to keep exposing them right?

 

[Paul B]

OK, I disagree with almost everything you said so we have to agree to disagree because we went through this ad nauseum. Have a great day.

 

[EliMelly]

Not yet. Stores closed over the weekend. Will try to find some tomorrow.

Been feeding seaweed extreme pellets. Ocean nutrition pellets. Nori sheets. Frozen mysis and brine shrimp soaked in garlic.

I suggest using LRS food and Rods food as well with selcon.