ICP tests show a number elements as continually elevated? Where should I be looking to correct this?

[DeputyDog95]

Just as the title says, my ICP tests are routinely showing the following as elevated:

Barium 0.047 mg/l
Litium 0.262 mg/l
Manganese 0.003 mg/l
Rubidium 0.433 mg/l
Selenium 0.010
Aluminum 0.027
Cesium 0.055 (allegedly this is common with red sea salt users)

So it's not a one off thing, but a consistent pattern of elevated elements which seems out of place. Especially the Selenium.

The tank has a total system volume of around 135 gallons and is only SPS. Things have not been going well as of late.

The water source has one sediment, three carbon blocks, one RO membrane, and three DI cartridges (Anion, Cation, Mixed bed). I've tested the RODI water and it's pretty much devoid of everything except for a little bismuth (0.005) which oddly enough doesn't show up in my tank water results.

I do 15% water changes weekly and use the following products:

Red Sea Blue Bucket Salt
Red Sea Alk, Ca, and Mg liquid
Red Sea Trace Colors A, B, C, D dosed according to Ca
Acropower (25ml/day)
Ocean Nutrition Green and Blue fish food pellets
One or two cubes of frozen food 5 days per week

I'm considering ICP'ing a freshly mixed batch of blue bucket water and Acropower to see what's in them. Maybe the Trace Colors (D) as well...

Red Sea says what's in A, B, and C... But is a little vague with D saying it has 18 trace elements in it but only lists 4. I've asked what the rest are and they won't tell me.

The Iron supplement has Manganese and Aluminum in them which could explain them being elevated, but then again I'm only about halfway in range for the actual Iron and at the top of the range for Copper. And while it has Zinc in it, I'm completely deficient in Zinc. Ugggh....

https://www.redseafish.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/24781-NEW-Manual-Colors-Supplements_GB-DE-FR-NL-SP-_2019A-44p.pdf

All the magnets look ok. I had one probe holder that was a little "meh", but it hadn't ruptured yet and I swapped it a while back...

Thoughts on where to begin and what I should do next?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not see a reason to be concerned about those at those levels. I would do nothing.

Don't fall for the trap that if ICP says it is high or low, something must be done.

 

[DeputyDog95]

I do not see a reason to be concerned about those at those levels. I would do nothing.

Don't fall for the trap that if ICP says it is high or low, something must be done.

Fair enough. Just concerns me that so many things have exceeded the high end of the range and continue to do so.

But if you say don't worry about it, then I won't worry about it

 

[DeputyDog95]

So... I ICP'd a fresh bucket of RS blue bucket @35ppt, RS liquid Alk, RS Trace Colors D, and Acropower.

The results were surprising...

I'm stopping Acropower immediately. It has way more elements than I ever suspected and may be contributing to elevated numbers since I started dosing 25ml/daily a few months ago. I figured it was mostly aminos, but with all the other elements he has in there, I'm sure it's part of why I'm seeing these raises elements starting to accumulate. I guess it's fine if you're not dosing trace elements, but with me already doing do, these other elements are duplicative.

My plan is to turn off the Acropower, do a couple of water changes, and retest in a couple of weeks to see how it all looks.

The blue bucket results were a little disappointing too...

The main elements were spot on as advertised more or less at 35ppt. However... Tons of Cesium, which explains my never ending elevated Cesium numbers. Even though I'm doing water changes, I'm just adding it right back in apparently. Other elements such as Iodine and Manganese were wildly elevated as well. Barium and Rubidium were way up there too.

The RS Alk was surprisingly overloaded with other stuff too. Way more than I expected. I figured it would be just buffers... Nope. Tons of main and trace elements in there too. You can't tell actual numbers because the sample would be considered highly concentrated not having been diluted first, but still odd all the extra stuff in there.

Last but not least, the trace colors D, had lots of things in it that were already contained in their Iron and other trace supplements. Seems duplicative. Again, you can't tell exactly how much is in there because they tested the undiluted liquid.


Obviously, knocking off the Acropower is an obvious easy decision.

However, I'm a little perplexed about what do about the salt mix...

I'm wondering if just going with something like Instant Ocean that has low numbers might be a better choice since I'm adding in trace elements?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you post the actual values that are concerning?

Bear in mind the huge dilution factor fir small volume additives.

 

[DeputyDog95]

Can you post the actual values that are concerning?

Bear in mind the huge dilution factor fir small volume additives.

Agreed. And these were not diluted so the numbers are not going to be accurate. Regardless of the numbers, it is odd that there are "extra" things in some of these solutions.

 

[DeputyDog95]

I can't paste images due to the way the website is setup, but I can post links to the results:

Recent Tank Water: https://app.reef-labs.com/share/fae4d7d8-a8d2-4e6e-9fe9-552d8f077de0

Red Sea Blue Bucket: https://app.reef-labs.com/share/ca371dd1-e8c7-44e1-9ce6-6bec698094c1

Red Sea Alk: https://app.reef-labs.com/share/8bd41fa8-9413-41be-8f6a-18054008bba0

Red Sea Trace D: https://app.reef-labs.com/share/e5be24e5-8669-48f6-b37e-8039bab01ec3

Acropower: https://app.reef-labs.com/share/6a969c08-973e-4913-9057-785983c11944

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I would say there are two problem with the analysis.

One is that the ICP tests used may be optimized for seawater and may not give accurate results for something that is not even remotely close to seawater.

Second, and most important, is the dilution on use, and your concerns about other things present. Unless you do a careful calculation, I'm not sure how you would know there is too much of something present.

The recommended acropower dose is 5 mL per 94.6 L once per week.

That is a dilution factor of 0.000053.

In looking at the analysis of acropower, I see nothing of any concern after being multiplied by 0.000053 and added once per week.

 

[DeputyDog95]

I would say there are two problem with the analysis.

One is that the ICP tests used may be optimized for seawater and may not give accurate results for something that is not even remotely close to seawater.

Second, and most important, is the dilution on use, and your concerns about other things present. Unless you do a careful calculation, I'm not sure how you would know there is too much of something present.

The recommended acropower dose is 5 mL per 94.6 L once per week.

That is a dilution factor of 0.000053.

In looking at the analysis of acropower, I see nothing of any concern after being multiplied by 0.000053 and added once per week.

Thanks for looking those over!

It was hard to catch it as I'm practically writing novels with these long posts, but I dose Acropower daily.

The ICP operator is a friend of mine and I discussed measuring things like Alk and Acropower with him when I was dropping the samples off. He basically said the same thing about the numbers. The machine won't likely give an accurate measurement as far as concentration of the elements due to being calibrated to read seawater, but it will accurately tell what elements are present in the sample and loosely for comparison purposes, which elements are more present than others. But the actual numbers on those samples, nope. Not valid for sure.

As far as Acropower is concerned, you're correct. That is the recommended starting dose based on the instructions. However, after reading some posts that include email responses from Julian himself, so long as your single dose is at least the minimum... You can increase the amount of that single dose, or dose that same minimum volume on additional days if your corals are doing well. Using too much will apparently will result in an algae bloom, so there are warnings to look out for that as a sign of overdosing.

I struggle with nutrients being low, so a couple of months ago, I decided to start dosing 25ml (the Rx amount for my tank volume) daily. Figured it can't hurt and if overdosing caused an algae bloom, it likely contained a lot of nutrients, which I am in short supply of. Worst case, I get a bloom and I shut it down. Nutrients haven't come up, but some elements have gone outside recommend ranges during this time frame of dosing daily. I most certainly can't definitively blame Acropower, but after making the decision to dose it daily not knowing what was in it, there has been an upward trend in some of the elements it contains.

I'm not knocking the product. Many people have had awesome results with Acrowpoer and I made the decision to dose it daily, in conjunction with dosing the Red Sea trace element system. Maybe that is not a great combination due to the overlap between the two and the elevated elements in the salt mix, and I should stick with Red Sea's aminos if I want to continue to dose them since they've been developed to work together. For testing purposes, it makes sense to eliminate the Acropower first since it's not entirely necessary, and see if there is an impact on the results as it relates to certain elements.

Now the Red Sea blue bucket salt is causing me a little concern... I've know for a couple of years now that their salts have cesium in the mixture. And over time, I have seen cesium as well as rubidium, lithium, manganese, and barium starting to rise. However, after texting a fresh batch of water, now I know why as it contains a very high amount of cesium as well as elevated rubidium, lithium, manganese, and barium. So every time I do a water change, instead of diluting those elements, I just keep adding more in. I got Red Sea's ICP results for my batch of salt, and while they only list the main elements, they were close to the main elements in my ICP so I'm reasonably confident my minor, trace, and contaminant ICP numbers are accurate.

The Selenium is a bit of a mystery. The Red Sea Alk and the Trace colors D both contain Selenium. But as mentioned earlier, we can only tell that an element is present and if it is more or less present than other elements in the sample. It sure would be nice to be able to know the actual numbers in those samples...

 

[Uncle99]

You post a line “Things have not been going well as of late.”
Can we see what that means in a pic, before and after if you have, it would be interesting to see.

I dose same as you for 5 years, my ICP always shows some elevated minor elements, but, these have never resulted in any problem.

Just interested in the biggies, and that minors, stay minor.

 

[DeputyDog95]

I don't have any before and after pics unfortunately, just personal observations... But colors are "meh", growth has slowed, and minimal PE extension. I also had a mille that had been in there for quite some time and was doing well, recently RTN overnight for no specific reason.

Even Alk consumption has dropped without having changed any of my routine.

So something is afoot

 

[Uncle99]

I don't have any before and after pics unfortunately, just personal observations... But colors are "meh", growth has slowed, and minimal PE extension. I also had a mille that had been in there for quite some time and was doing well, recently RTN overnight for no specific reason.

Even Alk consumption has dropped without having changed any of my routine.

So something is afoot

Ok, then can you indicate the age of the system?
For how long in months have the numbers remained stable?
I wouldn’t change salt, that will affect stability greatly as you use RSCP which runs elevated major elements. I’ve used RSCP forever and never had any issues, sometimes ICP tests get me concerned, but not chasing any of them.

Your degrade in coral health may have nothing to do with the small amount of these minor elements, I get the same s results.
Not sure whether or not these things should be/not be and what is a safe level, but, my Corals are happy, so I don’t care much.

The only thing we do differently is I don’t dose Acropower.

 

[rtparty]

I don’t see a single element I’d spend more than 2 seconds trying to correct in those numbers. I know of well over 100 tanks dosing selenium daily with no issues. An explosion of coralline is the most common report when dosing selenium.

 

[DeputyDog95]

Ok, then can you indicate the age of the system?
For how long in months have the numbers remained stable?
I wouldn’t change salt, that will affect stability greatly as you use RSCP which runs elevated major elements. I’ve used RSCP forever and never had any issues, sometimes ICP tests get me concerned, but not chasing any of them.

Your degrade in coral health may have nothing to do with the small amount of these minor elements, I get the same s results.
Not sure whether or not these things should be/not be and what is a safe level, but, my Corals are happy, so I don’t care much.

The only thing we do differently is I don’t dose Acropower.

Nice looking tank!

This particular system is about 2.5 years old now and things have been relatively stable with the main elements for quite some time.

I did lose power for 24 hours after the last hurricane and that really boogered things up for a bit, lost a lot of fish and coral. The tank was at my office and I couldn't get there during the storm to do anything about it... That was a few months ago though and the numbers have settled back to pre-hurricane.

This is my 4th SPS tank, so I have a decent working knowledge of caring for them at this point, and have had relatively good success.

I guess I just worry about having one of those "overnight RTN entire tank coral melt downs" after months or years of excess element buildup. I pay pretty close attention and things don't seem as happy lately and Alk consumption has dropped... And with that mille going up in smoke the other day, it got me concerned.

Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, I've been known to do that

 

[DeputyDog95]

I don’t see a single element I’d spend more than 2 seconds trying to correct in those numbers. I know of well over 100 tanks dosing selenium daily with no issues. An explosion of coralline is the most common report when dosing selenium.

Appreciate the feedback!

 

[Uncle99]

Nice looking tank!

This particular system is about 2.5 years old now and things have been relatively stable with the main elements for quite some time.

I did lose power for 24 hours after the last hurricane and that really boogered things up for a bit, lost a lot of fish and coral. The tank was at my office and I couldn't get there during the storm to do anything about it... That was a few months ago though and the numbers have settled back to pre-hurricane.

This is my 4th SPS tank, so I have a decent working knowledge of caring for them at this point, and have had relatively good success.

I guess I just worry about having one of those "overnight RTN entire tank coral melt downs" after months or years of excess element buildup. I pay pretty close attention and things don't seem as happy lately and Alk consumption has dropped... And with that mille going up in smoke the other day, it got me concerned.

Maybe I'm worrying about nothing, I've been known to do that

Clearly a mature system at 2.5 years.
Good work!

Could it be a nutrient fluctuation issue?

Yup the power outage things going to do some unseen damage as well, but should recovery nice and quick.

If your talking about a stick going out here and there, I get this from time to time, when everything else fine. Stuff happens.

Your system has been running well for years, sometimes less is better.

 

[DeputyDog95]

Clearly a mature system at 2.5 years.
Good work!

Could it be a nutrient fluctuation issue?

Yup the power outage things going to do some unseen damage as well, but should recovery nice and quick.

If your talking about a stick going out here and there, I get this from time to time, when everything else fine. Stuff happens.

Your system has been running well for years, sometimes less is better.

Yeah, you may be right. I guess we'll see how it goes. So long as the numbers don't keep increasing, I should probably let it go and not worry about it.

That's the problem with "too much information". Makes you want to fix everything. Sometimes ignorance is bliss

I'm still curious as to Red Sea's blue bucket salt numbers and why they have those high concentrations of things such as Cesium and Barium, well outside the range of NSW. I've submitted a ticket and am interested to see what their thoughts are.

 

[92Miata]

Fair enough. Just concerns me that so many things have exceeded the high end of the range and continue to do so.

But if you say don't worry about it, then I won't worry about it

You should consider that range largely arbitrary. There's no real reasoning around the specific thresholds.

 

[DeputyDog95]

You should consider that range largely arbitrary. There's no real reasoning around the specific thresholds.

You're likely right. I think they base the general range around NSW levels. But I'm not sure there is enough research to definitively say what the upper range is regarding some of the trace elements and the impact it has on life inside a small closed system.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

But I'm not sure there is enough research to definitively say what the upper range is regarding some of the trace elements and the impact it has on life inside a small closed system.

There definitely is not (IMO). Not only is there little data on what levels are too high (or too low), but chemical form is critical in such determinations, and ICP cannot ever determine the form of a chemical present.