Infrequent to no water changes

[Lenny_S]

I have read a number of posts and articles on this topic and would like some first hand experience from other members.
If I understand the basics of the closed system as it relates to saltwater aquariums, bad stuff gets created and needs to be removed and good stuff gets used and need to be replaced.
It seems to me that partial water changes is only one method for doing this, and not a particularly good one. At a kind of standard 10-15 percent weekly, it wouldn't seem to be much of a dilution of bad things or replenishment of good things. And let's face it, it's a lot of effort and some risk for the livestock.
It is more intuitive to me that a comprehensive filtration system and dosing is more effective and easier. I am in the late planning stages and ready to pull the trigger on a new reef aquarium setup. Here is what I'm planning.
160 gallon display tank
60 gallon sump-refugium (nitrogen cycle, some nitrate and phosphate removal)
420 gallon rated protein skimmer (organic waste removal)
Bio-pellet reactor (nitrate and some phosphate removal)
GFO reactor (phosphate removal)
Carbon reactor (inorganic waste/impurity removal)
Canister filter (used only intermittently to clean the sand bed and live rock as a sort of marine shop vac)
Dosing pumps (replace calcium, alkalinity, magnesium, trace elements & minerals)

Unless I'm missing something, once dialed in, that would remove all the unwanted bad things and replace all the necessary good things.

Has anyone tried anything similar?

 

[FarmerTy]

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/208435/

Here's documentation of my method that works for me.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

IMO, your plan seems like a good one.

Many people keep reefs without water changes. And many of those are very nice reef tanks.

IMO, it is an open question whether those might be improved by water changes or not. I expect some would and some wouldn't.

I would challenge one of your assumptions: that water changes are effort and risk livestock. Mine are automatic, happen many times per day (totalling 1% daily) and only take about 5 minutes of time once a month to make salt water.

One of the issues with no changes is determining how much of what to dose. With the advent of tests from Triton, folks can have a better handle on what trace elements are needed, but that is not foolproof as they cannot test low enough for some elements.

And there are not good tried and true ways to export all elements (lithium or aluminum, for example) or to correct certain imbalances (chloride/sulfate, for example) without doing water changes.

WHen you say:

"Carbon reactor (inorganic waste/impurity removal)"

What sort of reactor? Granular activated carbon? If so, I don't think it removes much inorganic waste except as it is attached to organic matter, such as copper bound to organics.

 

[zwulfke]

I have a tank at work sees a water change once every 3 months its a 14g cube. Now I have to say I have a skimmer and ATO but,,..... this tank looks better than any other tank I have had. Growth and animals like stars and pods are through the roof . I have 2 clowns in there and all the other critters this tank looks amazing. I am doing the same at home and I am seeing the same results I feel the water needs to have more in it for things to grow better. I feel water changes in a way sterilizes your tank in a way

 

[LivinTheSwreefLife]

IMO, your plan seems like a good one.

Many people keep reefs without water changes. And many of those are very nice reef tanks.

IMO, it is an open question whether those might be improved by water changes or not. I expect some would and some wouldn't.

I would challenge one of your assumptions: that water changes are effort and risk livestock. Mine are automatic, happen many times per day (totalling 1% daily) and only take about 5 minutes of time once a month to make salt water.

Not to derail the thread but just wondering, with an automated water change system like this, can there be issues if you're not doing a vacuum of detritus from the sand bed? Or does this assume a bare bottom tank?

 

[twilliard]

IMO, your plan seems like a good one.

Many people keep reefs without water changes. And many of those are very nice reef tanks.

IMO, it is an open question whether those might be improved by water changes or not. I expect some would and some wouldn't.

I would challenge one of your assumptions: that water changes are effort and risk livestock. Mine are automatic, happen many times per day (totalling 1% daily) and only take about 5 minutes of time once a month to make salt water.

One of the issues with no changes is determining how much of what to dose. With the advent of tests from Triton, folks can have a better handle on what trace elements are needed, but that is not foolproof as they cannot test low enough for some elements.

And there are not good tried and true ways to export all elements (lithium or aluminum, for example) or to correct certain imbalances (chloride/sulfate, for example) without doing water changes.

WHen you say:

"Carbon reactor (inorganic waste/impurity removal)"

What sort of reactor? Granular activated carbon? If so, I don't think it removes much inorganic waste except as it is attached to organic matter, such as copper bound to organics.

Thank you Randy and of course you have the best well educated answers. I love to read them!
For the OP
Have you ever looked up the triton method?
I see there is a list of equipment but for the most part not needed.
Macro algaes will take and give what the system needs (diverse macros)
Its just an idea of the natural process of our closed loop systems.
Not trying to sell, just gives an idea of water change free tanks.

 

[patrick]

I personally haven't done a water change in a year or more. I have a 150 cube with a 20 gallon sump.
I keep it simple, protein skimmer, carbon reactor and a uv sterilizer. I have a tunze auto top off that doses my kalk. I add 3 times a week 1/2 the recommended dose of KZ trace elements.
By no means is my tank reef of the month quality but I don't have nuisance algae either. Things seem to be thriving not just staying alive.
I feed fish as often as possible which on the weekend is up to 10 times a day. Probably not for everyone but works for me.
I was doing 30% weekly water changes for years. I thought to my self if there's nothing wrong why? So I stopped and never looked back.
We'll see what the next year brings and if it looks like I need to do a water change I will as I'm definitely not against it.

 

[patrick]

Here is a couple of current pics so I can at least validate my statement

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Not to derail the thread but just wondering, with an automated water change system like this, can there be issues if you're not doing a vacuum of detritus from the sand bed? Or does this assume a bare bottom tank?

I ignore detritus, and in my sump and refugia it collects as a thick mud.

If I were trying to keep a ULNS system (ultra low nutrients), I would probably do something about detritus, but that's not my goal.

 

[Lenny_S]

IMO, your plan seems like a good one.

Many people keep reefs without water changes. And many of those are very nice reef tanks.

IMO, it is an open question whether those might be improved by water changes or not. I expect some would and some wouldn't.

I would challenge one of your assumptions: that water changes are effort and risk livestock. Mine are automatic, happen many times per day (totalling 1% daily) and only take about 5 minutes of time once a month to make salt water.

One of the issues with no changes is determining how much of what to dose. With the advent of tests from Triton, folks can have a better handle on what trace elements are needed, but that is not foolproof as they cannot test low enough for some elements.

And there are not good tried and true ways to export all elements (lithium or aluminum, for example) or to correct certain imbalances (chloride/sulfate, for example) without doing water changes.

WHen you say:

"Carbon reactor (inorganic waste/impurity removal)"

What sort of reactor? Granular activated carbon? If so, I don't think it removes much inorganic waste except as it is attached to organic matter, such as copper bound to organics.

Randy, thank you for the response. As far as the carbon reactor goes, I did in fact mean granular activated carbon in a media reactor. I've also seen other products like "Chemi-Pure" on the market which might have a better result. In either case I understand what you are saying about the inorganic having to be bound to organize to work. Probably the best option is prevention, not letting any of that sort of impurity in.

And the assumption about water changes being an effort and a rust was entirely my opinion and not having a nice automated continuous system like yours.

 

[Lenny_S]

Not to derail the thread but just wondering, with an automated water change system like this, can there be issues if you're not doing a vacuum of detritus from the sand bed? Or does this assume a bare bottom tank?

For me, this is where the canister filter (from my original post) comes in. When the Rock and/or sand is looking shabby, I hook up the canister filter (with just mechanical filtration) and use it just like a shop vac. I even made a couple of different ends for the piece of rigid pipe connected to the hose to comb the sand and keep the intake at the right height above it. I have a pretty shallow sand bed, only about an inch. I also have a similar end for the rock with soft nylon bristles. For me it works a lot better than a siphon tube and a turkey baster, and it removes very little water because I put the canisters return right into the tank. I only lose what's in the canister.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Randy, thank you for the response. As far as the carbon reactor goes, I did in fact mean granular activated carbon in a media reactor. I've also seen other products like "Chemi-Pure" on the market which might have a better result. In either case I understand what you are saying about the inorganic having to be bound to organize to work. Probably the best option is prevention, not letting any of that sort of impurity in.

And the assumption about water changes being an effort and a rust was entirely my opinion and not having a nice automated continuous system like yours.

I don't think ChemiPure would be a particularly useful way to go (don't believe their marketing claims), but using Seachem Purigen (a synthetic organic-binding resin) in addition to GAC could be a good combination for removing organic matter.

 

[Jimbo662]

https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/208435/

Here's documentation of my method that works for me.

I can attest...his tank is amazing!

 

[billw]

How about toxin buildup resulting from coral turf wars, or any leaching from plumbing (softeners in vinly hose used around the tank)? Is GAC adequate to handle this?

 

[Reefing Madness]

Yes, Granular Activated Carbon will remove those things.