Is a self sustained reef tank possible?

[nanomania]

20+ years ago, when I was a teenager and worked with tank maintenance, two customer's tanks were "sled sustainable" for 1 and 2 years. They weren't designed to be self sustainable, but they eventually got neglected and still thrived.
They were both 700l+,SPS dominated, with DSB, 2x400w MH, ato, refuting, skimmer and ca reactor.

Before being neglected, they were solid systems, packed with fish and thriving colonies.

These guys stopped doing any maintenance, apart from refilling the ato container and the result after one year was amazing to watch.
The first year is natural selection, some fishes died some thrived and even reproduced(bangaii).
Most SPS grew up to gigantic sizes and eventually montis(all types) started outgrowing all other corals.
Second year was even more interesting, with colonies so big, they were growing on the front glass.

So, it is possible to run tanks in "auto mode", but the result is what most people consider beautiful.
In their cases, I am certain what made it possible was water volume x bioload, being mature tanks and running on a ca reactor.

Were the skimmer and ato removed? Im not including any king of dosing in self sustained in case of sps dominated. As far as sps goes, iv been to singapore farm once and they had a huge acro grow out tank. They told me we never test water nor change. Only thing is had was a calcuim reactor and a skimmer that they would clean once in a year. They said they hsve acros growing even when no3 was 30+. They had a few tangs and wrasse though. Never measured ph etc, No nothing. I cudnt believe. Dono wether they were lying or no.

 

[FranklinDattein]

No, both skimmer and ato were still on, in both tanks. Skimmer would be cleaned once every full moon and ato was connected to a reservoir that would last half an year.

The key factor is water volume, IMO. Put 1 fish and 10 corals in 3000l of water, and those 10 corals will grow for a long while.

It is just not the type of setup most aquarists dream about.

 

[Ian Abdilla]

That's the reason I like ponds; no glass. And the periphyton that grows on all the walls adds to the filtering.



There's an idea: an NPS hands-off tank.



Welcome Steven. From your setup, one thing you might do is have battery powered backup flow to and from the fuge. Macros can absorb ammonia in the dark, so if you power goes out for a few days when you are gone, the macros should keep things alive.



I think the focus is more than just a Jaubert or Berlin. Yes you can just leave them be, but you still must get N and P out. Especially P, which is not going anywhere with just a Jaubert or Berlin by itself. Add some easy to harvest macros or an algae scrubber, and then you are removing P.



N and P do not break down. They build up unless removed. N is easier, but P takes more work.

N in a Jaubert System are removed by the denitrification bacteria which will develop in the lower part of the deep sand bed and the plenum. P is removed via a few methods - if it is dissolved it's level in the water can be lowered by ejecting phosphate as an aerosol through air bubbling (see further below) and if kalkwasser is added it causes rapid precipitation of dissolved phosphate which in turn deposits itself on the substrate where algae can absorb it and also bacteria (see further below)

"Jaubert Method/NNR

This method is actually a modified version of the Berlin Method and was conceived by Jean Jaubert in the late 1980s though some limited study began even before then. Much research and application has been conducted on this method by Sam Gamble and Bob Goemans (the later of the two who coined the phrase "Natural Nitrate Reduction" (NNR). Basically, this method utilizes a plenum in which an open space of water is located under a deep layer of sand at the bottom of the tank. This open space remains primarily anoxic which allows high levels of bacteria that are hypoxic (lives in a low oxygen environment) to thrive. This low oxygen area conflicts with the high oxygen area of the main water column above the sand bed which results in an extremely slow movement of water through the sand bed itself. This slow water movement keeps the lower areas of the sand bed anoxic and nutrients cycling instead of accumulating at the tank bottom (nutrient sink), therefore the beneficial hypoxic bacteria thrive. Studies have shown that a depth of 4 inches to be ideal when utilizing a plenum. A shallower sand bed would be far less efficient. Any depth exceeding 4 inches would impact the system negatively, changing the sand beds redox which would result in nitrogen storage (not good). So, the bottom line is: when going with a plenum, ensure that you have a 4-inch sand bed depth."

Taken from http://www.reeftime.com/reef-articles/basics-of-reefkeeping/planning-your-system/41.htm/41.htm just as a reference. More studies are available.


Re phosohates and airstone:

"In a Jaubert system one may employ aeration, algae harvest, protein skimming, and or kalkwasser dosing to manage the phosphate level. The spontaneous precipitation of calcium phosphate in marine aquariums that are maintained at natural seawater pH helps to lower the dissolved phosphate level, given adequate supply of calcium. However, this process is easily overwhelmed with high inputs of phosphate from the makeup water or from the food added for a large population of fish. In addition, dissolved organically bound phosphate can persist in the water, and particulate organic phosphate accumulates in the substrate. As I mentioned, protein skimming helps to remove dissolved phosphate. The bubbling action of airstones can also lower the dissolved phosphate level in the water by ejecting phosphate as an aerosol (see Spotte). Dosing the aquarium with kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide solution) causes rapid precipitation of dissolved phosphate due to the supply of calcium ions and the increase in pH caused by the hydroxide ions. The precipitated phosphate is insoluble at natural seawater pH, so while it accumulates in the aquarium in the bottom substrate, it is generally not available to the water column. Algae growing on the substrate may be able to obtain the phosphate by secreting special enzymes that digest it. Algae may also employ the activities of symbiotic bacteria that secrete enzymes to liberate phosphate bound to the gravel or tied up in organic detritus. Harvesting and removing algae such as Caulerpa spp. from the aquarium is a way to export phosphate. Particulate phosphate (organic and inorganic) can also be exported via protein skimming, and siphoning to remove it during water changes."

Taken from http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/aafeature

 

[nanomania]

N in a Jaubert System are removed by the denitrification bacteria which will develop in the lower part of the deep sand bed and the plenum. P is removed via a few methods - if it is dissolved it's level in the water can be lowered by ejecting phosphate as an aerosol through air bubbling (see further below) and if kalkwasser is added it causes rapid precipitation of dissolved phosphate which in turn deposits itself on the substrate where algae can absorb it and also bacteria (see further below)

"Jaubert Method/NNR

This method is actually a modified version of the Berlin Method and was conceived by Jean Jaubert in the late 1980s though some limited study began even before then. Much research and application has been conducted on this method by Sam Gamble and Bob Goemans (the later of the two who coined the phrase "Natural Nitrate Reduction" (NNR). Basically, this method utilizes a plenum in which an open space of water is located under a deep layer of sand at the bottom of the tank. This open space remains primarily anoxic which allows high levels of bacteria that are hypoxic (lives in a low oxygen environment) to thrive. This low oxygen area conflicts with the high oxygen area of the main water column above the sand bed which results in an extremely slow movement of water through the sand bed itself. This slow water movement keeps the lower areas of the sand bed anoxic and nutrients cycling instead of accumulating at the tank bottom (nutrient sink), therefore the beneficial hypoxic bacteria thrive. Studies have shown that a depth of 4 inches to be ideal when utilizing a plenum. A shallower sand bed would be far less efficient. Any depth exceeding 4 inches would impact the system negatively, changing the sand beds redox which would result in nitrogen storage (not good). So, the bottom line is: when going with a plenum, ensure that you have a 4-inch sand bed depth."

Taken from http://www.reeftime.com/reef-articles/basics-of-reefkeeping/planning-your-system/41.htm/41.htm just as a reference. More studies are available.


Re phosohates and airstone:

"In a Jaubert system one may employ aeration, algae harvest, protein skimming, and or kalkwasser dosing to manage the phosphate level. The spontaneous precipitation of calcium phosphate in marine aquariums that are maintained at natural seawater pH helps to lower the dissolved phosphate level, given adequate supply of calcium. However, this process is easily overwhelmed with high inputs of phosphate from the makeup water or from the food added for a large population of fish. In addition, dissolved organically bound phosphate can persist in the water, and particulate organic phosphate accumulates in the substrate. As I mentioned, protein skimming helps to remove dissolved phosphate. The bubbling action of airstones can also lower the dissolved phosphate level in the water by ejecting phosphate as an aerosol (see Spotte). Dosing the aquarium with kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide solution) causes rapid precipitation of dissolved phosphate due to the supply of calcium ions and the increase in pH caused by the hydroxide ions. The precipitated phosphate is insoluble at natural seawater pH, so while it accumulates in the aquarium in the bottom substrate, it is generally not available to the water column. Algae growing on the substrate may be able to obtain the phosphate by secreting special enzymes that digest it. Algae may also employ the activities of symbiotic bacteria that secrete enzymes to liberate phosphate bound to the gravel or tied up in organic detritus. Harvesting and removing algae such as Caulerpa spp. from the aquarium is a way to export phosphate. Particulate phosphate (organic and inorganic) can also be exported via protein skimming, and siphoning to remove it during water changes."

Taken from http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/aafeature

So one needs a refugium for jaubert too? What macro algae absorbs po4 no3 the fastest? Currently i have cheato.

 

[Ian Abdilla]

No refugium. Macro algae needs to be living on the substrate and harvested. Obviously, many have kept a Jaubert system without the need for lots or any macro algae
Depends on how much you feed and how fast P accumulates

 

[truffle22]

In my opinion it is definitely possible to have a self sustained tank. If the ocean is self-sustaining and has been self-sustaining for millions of years then I feel that it is totally possible to figure out how the ocean does it and how we can apply it to our tank. How does the ocean remove waste? How does the ocean produce calcium and alkalinity? Control temperature. I feel it is possible there's just a lot of thing we do not know or fully understand. Once said by a friend how do you take for granted a lot in this hobby and relying on faith and trust what others say about parameter lighting and tank specs.

 

[nanomania]

In my opinion it is definitely possible to have a self sustained tank. If the ocean is self-sustaining and has been self-sustaining for millions of years then I feel that it is totally possible to figure out how the ocean does it and how we can apply it to our tank. How does the ocean remove waste? How does the ocean produce calcium and alkalinity? Control temperature. I feel it is possible there's just a lot of thing we do not know or fully understand. Once said by a friend how do you take for granted a lot in this hobby and relying on faith and trust what others say about parameter lighting and tank specs.

True, when i started this thread, i knew there will be some criticism, but its alot less then i expected.. [emoji4] . thNks for putting in the point of calcium and alk and other trace. Never thought about it. Maybe its possible that the co2 or hydrogen sulfide builtup in the deep can cause some cal alk etc. To dissolve and the corals might be using them. im not a marine biologist, so i dont know how to use those scientific terms. But im sure nature knows much more then we will ever know.[emoji4]

 

[Ian Abdilla]

True, when i started this thread, i knew there will be some criticism, but its alot less then i expected.. [emoji4] . thNks for putting in the point of calcium and alk and other trace. Never thought about it. Maybe its possible that the co2 or hydrogen sulfide builtup in the deep can cause some cal alk etc. To dissolve and the corals might be using them. im not a marine biologist, so i dont know how to use those scientific terms. But im sure nature knows much more then we will ever know.[emoji4]

It will in fact happen but will be in really trace quantities which are in no way enough for full calcification requirements by corals

 

[najer]

It will in fact happen but will be in really trace quantities which are in no way enough for full calcification requirements by corals

That makes so much sense, in a gazillion G tank that has normal seawater levels it will cope, once we add 1 thing (snail coraline crab) that needs calcium we need to dose, I'm going to call my tank "minimal intervention" from now on.

 

[najer]

Fragged and introduced about 2 hours ago, my minimal intervention tank can do acros too.

 

[SantaMonica]

I don't think the a bubbling P remover is what you are thinking; phosphorus cannot be removed this way. It will indeed precipitate with higher pH, but from my readings it will re-dissolve eventually when the pH drops back to tank levels, and certainly when microbes consume it. This is studied extensively in wastewater and biofuel areas. Fortunately macros can get to it before all this.

 

[nanomania]

As far as i know, best ways to remove po4 are macro, ats and lanthanum. Obv as for self sustained 0 manitanance, we cant include ats and lanthanum. Dont know about this bubbling method at all, first time got to learn abt it.

 

[Paul B]

N in a Jaubert System are removed by the denitrification bacteria which will develop in the lower part of the deep sand bed and the plenum. P is removed via a few methods - if it is dissolved it's level in the water can be lowered by ejecting phosphate as an aerosol through air bubbling (see further below) and if kalkwasser is added it causes rapid precipitation of dissolved phosphate which in turn deposits itself on the substrate where algae can absorb it and also bacteria (see further below)

"Jaubert Method/NNR

This method is actually a modified version of the Berlin Method and was conceived by Jean Jaubert in the late 1980s though some limited study began even before then. Much research and application has been conducted on this method by Sam Gamble and Bob Goemans (the later of the two who coined the phrase "Natural Nitrate Reduction" (NNR). Basically, this method utilizes a plenum in which an open space of water is located under a deep layer of sand at the bottom of the tank. This open space remains primarily anoxic which allows high levels of bacteria that are hypoxic (lives in a low oxygen environment) to thrive. This low oxygen area conflicts with the high oxygen area of the main water column above the sand bed which results in an extremely slow movement of water through the sand bed itself. This slow water movement keeps the lower areas of the sand bed anoxic and nutrients cycling instead of accumulating at the tank bottom (nutrient sink), therefore the beneficial hypoxic bacteria thrive. Studies have shown that a depth of 4 inches to be ideal when utilizing a plenum. A shallower sand bed would be far less efficient. Any depth exceeding 4 inches would impact the system negatively, changing the sand beds redox which would result in nitrogen storage (not good). So, the bottom line is: when going with a plenum, ensure that you have a 4-inch sand bed depth."

Taken from http://www.reeftime.com/reef-articles/basics-of-reefkeeping/planning-your-system/41.htm/41.htm just as a reference. More studies are available.


Re phosohates and airstone:

"In a Jaubert system one may employ aeration, algae harvest, protein skimming, and or kalkwasser dosing to manage the phosphate level. The spontaneous precipitation of calcium phosphate in marine aquariums that are maintained at natural seawater pH helps to lower the dissolved phosphate level, given adequate supply of calcium. However, this process is easily overwhelmed with high inputs of phosphate from the makeup water or from the food added for a large population of fish. In addition, dissolved organically bound phosphate can persist in the water, and particulate organic phosphate accumulates in the substrate. As I mentioned, protein skimming helps to remove dissolved phosphate. The bubbling action of airstones can also lower the dissolved phosphate level in the water by ejecting phosphate as an aerosol (see Spotte). Dosing the aquarium with kalkwasser (calcium hydroxide solution) causes rapid precipitation of dissolved phosphate due to the supply of calcium ions and the increase in pH caused by the hydroxide ions. The precipitated phosphate is insoluble at natural seawater pH, so while it accumulates in the aquarium in the bottom substrate, it is generally not available to the water column. Algae growing on the substrate may be able to obtain the phosphate by secreting special enzymes that digest it. Algae may also employ the activities of symbiotic bacteria that secrete enzymes to liberate phosphate bound to the gravel or tied up in organic detritus. Harvesting and removing algae such as Caulerpa spp. from the aquarium is a way to export phosphate. Particulate phosphate (organic and inorganic) can also be exported via protein skimming, and siphoning to remove it during water changes."

Taken from http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/9/aafeature

I was here when those systems were in style. Actually I was here way before them. Bob Goemans is a friend of mine and he was at my home discussing the systems. Both those systems fell out of favor but they did have their advantages. I still use my reverse Undergravel filter and like it better than all of those systems.

 

[nanomania]

I was here when those systems were in style. Actually I was here way before them. Bob Goemans is a friend of mine and he was at my home discussing the systems. Both those systems fell out of favor but they did have their advantages. I still use my reverse Undergravel filter and like it better than all of those systems.

My first system was reverse flow ugf, but didnt work for me, i guess it wasnt correctly made.

 

[nanomania]

Hey guys, jus made a short video on my semi-selfsustaining reef.

 

[SantaMonica]

Make the top tank a display fuge, draining down to the reef.

 

[nanomania]

Make the top tank a display fuge, draining down to the reef.

Gona convert the tank to backsump reef, lets see.

 

[nanomania]

Hey guys, my tank update,
The po4 is at 0.25, but my no3 is around 50. Iv beed feeding 3ice daily and weelky phyto. I guess ill have to cut down on feeding and stop phyto dosing. The cheato still grows fast. Even thoigh my no3 is so high, i dont see much of algae. However my gsp and palys are not doing that well and my gbta size has reduced a little bit. Fishes doing fine. I feel that my no3 has increased coz of phyto dosing and toomuch feeding for sure.