Lanthanum precipitate

[Dave-T]

I'd like to start using lanthanum to bring my phosphates down. I have some Phosphate-E (which is the same as lanthanum - right?).

My understanding is that I want to dose the lanthanum into a fine mesh filter sock, in order to capture the precipitate. Because it's a bad thing for the precipitate to make it into my system. What I don't get is how this could work - does the lanthanum bind with the phosphate so quickly that no unbound lanthanum would make it through the filter sock? I would think that some would make it through the filter sock and bind with phosphate elsewhere in the system, which I'd like to avoid.

Also - how much of a daily PPM drop of phosphate is safe? How gradually should I drop my phosphates?

Thanks!

- Dave

 

[Pistondog]

I'd like to start using lanthanum to bring my phosphates down. I have some Phosphate-E (which is the same as lanthanum - right?).

My understanding is that I want to dose the lanthanum into a fine mesh filter sock, in order to capture the precipitate. Because it's a bad thing for the precipitate to make it into my system. What I don't get is how this could work - does the lanthanum bind with the phosphate so quickly that no unbound lanthanum would make it through the filter sock? I would think that some would make it through the filter sock and bind with phosphate elsewhere in the system, which I'd like to avoid.

Also - how much of a daily PPM drop of phosphate is safe? How gradually should I drop my phosphates?

Thanks!

- Dave

Smart to ask these questions now.
Dose diluted 50:1 into the overflow, caught by the 5 micron filter sox, and skimmer.
Drip over a few hours to minimize impact to dt.
Do not lower po4 by more than 0.5 ppm/ day.
Do not use lanthanum below 0.2 ppm.

 

[MnFish1]

I'd like to start using lanthanum to bring my phosphates down. I have some Phosphate-E (which is the same as lanthanum - right?).

My understanding is that I want to dose the lanthanum into a fine mesh filter sock, in order to capture the precipitate. Because it's a bad thing for the precipitate to make it into my system. What I don't get is how this could work - does the lanthanum bind with the phosphate so quickly that no unbound lanthanum would make it through the filter sock? I would think that some would make it through the filter sock and bind with phosphate elsewhere in the system, which I'd like to avoid.

Also - how much of a daily PPM drop of phosphate is safe? How gradually should I drop my phosphates?

Thanks!

- Dave

Don't know what Phosphat-E is. However - If you think about it - the second you add lanthanum into your tank - lets say in a reactor - there will be a percentage that will escape - so I disagree with your comment that lanthanum will cause an immediate problem. As long as your filter is collecting the residue - it should be fine. PS - I would not have a system that allows Lanthanum into my display tank. You would want to try to ensure it does not go elsewhere in your system. @Randy Holmes-Farley would be the go-to here IMHO

 

[Garf]

does the lanthanum bind with the phosphate so quickly

As far as I could tell when googling it a while back the precipitate forms almost immediately with a particle size of 0.4 microns. This particle then grows up to 100 microns over time, don’t remember how long.

Edit - I concluded the larger particle sizes only occurred under excess lanthanum concentrations, but I’m not a chemist.

 

[Dave-T]

Smart to ask these questions now.
Dose diluted 50:1 into the overflow, caught by the 5 micron filter sox, and skimmer.
Drip over a few hours to minimize impact to dt.
Do not lower po4 by more than 0.5 ppm/ day.
Do not use lanthanum below 0.2 ppm.

My overflow feeds into a 30 micron roller mat. But I set up a seperate pump in my sump which pumps water into a 1 micron filter sock. So I plan on dosing directly into that.

I think you mean 0.05 and 0.02, though - right?

Don't know what Phosphat-E is. However - If you think about it - the second you add lanthanum into your tank - lets say in a reactor - there will be a percentage that will escape - so I disagree with your comment that lanthanum will cause an immediate problem. As long as your filter is collecting the residue - it should be fine. PS - I would not have a system that allows Lanthanum into my display tank. You would want to try to ensure it does not go elsewhere in your system. @Randy Holmes-Farley would be the go-to here IMHO

Phosphate E: https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/phosphat-e-liquid-phosphate-remover-brightwell-aquatics.html

I don't understand what you're saying - how can I ensure that it doesn't go elsewhere in my system? That's what the filter sock is for, but if it escapes through that, how could you prevent it from getting into your display tank?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I think you mean 0.05 and 0.02, though - right?

No. Under 0.2 ppm, use GFO.

 

[Dave-T]

No. Under 0.2 ppm, use GFO.

Ok, thanks. Could you explain? My phosphate is at 0.15. I want to get it below 0.1. Why not use lanthanum? I'd rather not use GFO, I'd be afraid of stripping all the phosphate out. And other things. Lanthanum seems better to me.

 

[Pistondog]

Imo, one key to safe lanthanum use is get lanrhanum chloride reacted quickly with the intended target, po4. Free lanthanum in the tank is not good. If the po4 level is too low, the lc may find something else undesirable to react with before po4.
This is my opinion. Others may have methods that work for them.

 

[BZOFIQ]

I truly believe the most important thing is 1 micron socks an extremely slow drip into overflow.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Ok, thanks. Could you explain? My phosphate is at 0.15. I want to get it below 0.1. Why not use lanthanum? I'd rather not use GFO, I'd be afraid of stripping all the phosphate out. And other things. Lanthanum seems better to me.

From what I understand, it's much more likely to strip all the phosphate out with lanthanum than with GFO.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I truly believe the most important thing is 1 micron socks an extremely slow drip into overflow.

Where do you find 10, 5, or 1 micron socks? (7 inch ring)

 

[Pistondog]

Where do you find 10, 5, or 1 micron socks? (7 inch ring)

Had to cut and sew these
Honritone 7 Inch Ring by 18 Inch Long Felt Filter Sock 5 Micron - Liquid Fabric Sump Filter Bag - 1 Pack https://a.co/d/aaPAMmB

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Had to cut and sew these
Honritone 7 Inch Ring by 18 Inch Long Felt Filter Sock 5 Micron - Liquid Fabric Sump Filter Bag - 1 Pack https://a.co/d/aaPAMmB

Yes, I do remember that brand, and that they were super long, lol. Did you use anything special to see them with? (I believe they are glued or otherwise bonded at the bottom... I'd want to be sure the sock was sealed adequately)

 

[MnFish1]

@Randy Holmes-Farley if there is anyone here who is an expert on phosphate binding its Randy - I would await his comment

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok, thanks. Could you explain? My phosphate is at 0.15. I want to get it below 0.1. Why not use lanthanum? I'd rather not use GFO, I'd be afraid of stripping all the phosphate out. And other things. Lanthanum seems better to me.

I'm not sure you will notice any change on lowering phosphate from 0.15 ppm to 0.1 ppm, but either lanthanum or GFO can do that just fine.

Of course, there is some potential risk of lanthanum and fish, but you will be using a very small amount. I do not think we know what the potential tox issue is, or why only a few folks observe it. I think it is possibly particulate lanthanum phosphate or oxide or carbonate particles irritating fish gills, but do not know that for sure.

There should be no problem lowering it slowly with either method by just using an appropriately small amount.

I'd go slowly, not because an immediate jump in phosphate from 0.15 ppm to 0.1 ppm would concern me, but because you do not want to overshoot with a mis-estimate of the amount needed.

 

[BZOFIQ]

Where do you find 10, 5, or 1 micron socks? (7 inch ring)

I've bought 1 and 5 micron here.

Amazon.com

 

[Garf]

I've bought 1 and 5 micron here.

Amazon.com

You could react a little Lanthanum in a jug with some tapwater (assuming tapwater has a bunch of phos), if it clouds you could tip it through the socks into a glass and see if it’s clear at either of those micron sizes.

 

[Reef By Steele]

I overstock and overfeed so my PO4 is always higher. I have been dosing lanthanum for about a year with no negative effects to my fish. And I have 5 tangs in the tank and that is one I believe is supposed to be affected. I use Brightwell Phosphate-E

 

[djkms]

Best place for filter socks IMO:
dudadiesel.com

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've bought 1 and 5 micron here.

Amazon.com

You don’t find that 1 micron filters quickly clog up?