Last Call Before Tearing Down Tank

[Rick.45cal]

If I were in your situation, I would dose nitrates and phosphates via my ATO on a consistent basis and get my nutrients up. The cyano has stopped being benthic and is now actively photosynthesizing, it’s doing this because it can and other competeing bacteria can’t, the best way to fight the stuff is to create a probiotic competitor. You need NO3 and PO4 for other bacteria to be able to compete. Don’t freak out over having NO3 and PO4 present it’s really not a bad thing, and it’s kind of a cheap insurance policy for the corals in your tank.

So here’s the deal, this isn’t going to fix it over night, the cyano isn’t just going to disappear because you have nitrates and phosphates available. It’s going to take time but it will fall into the background and stop making the mats that you see everywhere.

It’s easy to get overly OCD about a tank and think everything needs to be spotless all the time. But the reality is the least amount of changes you can make to your system at one time the better. I’m a big proponent of automatic water changes but for the reason of changing a small portion of the water on a daily basis. (It’s best not to do enormous waterchanges on a reef in my experience, it’s at the very best, counter productive to stability). So I would absolutely minimize your daily waterchanges to 1% of your system volume, and if your really feeling like it needs it 2%.

The key to dosing nutrients is that you have to be consistent with it and get the system stabilized before you stop, if they are disappearing by the next day, continue dosing. If they continue to disappear after several days of dosing increase your daily dosage slightly. Do this until you have 5-15ppm of NO3 and consistent detectable phosphates. (Be very careful that you do not run undetectable phosphates with nitrates present, otherwise you will crash your tank and kill a lot of your corals). Like I said I add my NO3 and PO4 to my ATO tank based off of how much water is used for daily evaporation. (I dose the equivalent of 2ppm NO3 daily and .02ppm PO4 daily for maintenance in my system, (just for reference).

 

[Crustaceon]

I honestly think our tanks always have cyano, dinos and GHA lurking about, but with nutrient levels in an acceptable range, there’s simply too much competition from normal marine algaes, bacterium and our corals to allow them to propagate.

 

[incloud design]

If I were in your situation, I would dose nitrates and phosphates via my ATO on a consistent basis and get my nutrients up. The cyano has stopped being benthic and is now actively photosynthesizing, it’s doing this because it can and other competeing bacteria can’t, the best way to fight the stuff is to create a probiotic competitor. You need NO3 and PO4 for other bacteria to be able to compete. Don’t freak out over having NO3 and PO4 present it’s really not a bad thing, and it’s kind of a cheap insurance policy for the corals in your tank.

So here’s the deal, this isn’t going to fix it over night, the cyano isn’t just going to disappear because you have nitrates and phosphates available. It’s going to take time but it will fall into the background and stop making the mats that you see everywhere.

It’s easy to get overly OCD about a tank and think everything needs to be spotless all the time. But the reality is the least amount of changes you can make to your system at one time the better. I’m a big proponent of automatic water changes but for the reason of changing a small portion of the water on a daily basis. (It’s best not to do enormous waterchanges on a reef in my experience, it’s at the very best, counter productive to stability). So I would absolutely minimize your daily waterchanges to 1% of your system volume, and if your really feeling like it needs it 2%.

The key to dosing nutrients is that you have to be consistent with it and get the system stabilized before you stop, if they are disappearing by the next day, continue dosing. If they continue to disappear after several days of dosing increase your daily dosage slightly. Do this until you have 5-15ppm of NO3 and consistent detectable phosphates. (Be very careful that you do not run undetectable phosphates with nitrates present, otherwise you will crash your tank and kill a lot of your corals). Like I said I add my NO3 and PO4 to my ATO tank based off of how much water is used for daily evaporation. (I dose the equivalent of 2ppm NO3 daily and .02ppm PO4 daily for maintenance in my system, (just for reference).

I agree 100% and I must say and not to jinx myself but right now my tank looks better than ever and my coral are happy as a pig in ****. My acans are blown up like balloons and everything is coming around nicely. I dosed N03, been feeding moderately but more than usual, dripping Kalk, and I think most importantly have increased my flow in both the sump and display. So like a lot things in this hobby I don't really know exactly what the problem was or why it is doing so well now but one thing for sure I am extremely happy that things are working out. As you all know these tanks become a real part of your life and I was miserable thinking of not having one but that's where I was at. Thanks to you all for the support along the way it is an amazing forum with great people who truly understand the passion we have for the lives of our livestock and in our own due to the life they lead. God bless you all!

 

[Crustaceon]

That’s great to hear. Just so you know, most of us freak out when we don’t see color on our nitrate test. It’s absolutely possible to have a tank that’s “too clean” and they typically crash very quickly.

 

[incloud design]

That’s great to hear. Just so you know, most of us freak out when we don’t see color on our nitrate test. It’s absolutely possible to have a tank that’s “too clean” and they typically crash very quickly.

It's entirely my case, I'm like Suzy home maker with my tank and it's my biggest problem. I'm going to try and leave it alone and stop maintaining it constantly and hopefully things will improve or stay stable.

 

[Crustaceon]

It's entirely my case, I'm like Suzy home maker with my tank and it's my biggest problem. I'm going to try and leave it alone and stop maintaining it constantly and hopefully things will improve or stay stable.

We all start out as Dr. Frankenstein with our tanks and make a lot of mistakes along the way. It’s typically when we act like Bob Marley that we start seeing success.

 

[incloud design]

We all start out as Dr. Frankenstein with our tanks and make a lot of mistakes along the way. It’s typically when we act like Bob Marley that we start seeing success.

Ten years now I've been Frankenstein and your right that every time I start slacking or get involved with another obsession, in other words ignore my tank to some degree, it prospers.

 

[incloud design]

Okay guys, I want to try and get a better understanding of exactly how to maintain beneficial bacteria in order to defend my system against Cyano and such again. Now that it is running good I am terrified of it happening again so want to take the necessary steps for prevention. Up until now I have used my own logic and that apparently isn't the way to go. My main question is how much does my sump and its' conditions effect my display? In other words if I just let the sump get nasty and become the ocean per say with lots of oxygenation will it benefit the display? I guess what I'm trying to determine is that in my head I can't understand how my skimmer and turbulent water in my sump that is a good 30 feet away and one story down in my house can help my display? Wouldn't the water change chemistry by the time it reaches the display at that distance? I can only crank my flow in the display so much without making my fish and coral swim for their life or coral get torn apart. It's pretty turbulent in there but I'm not sure they are too happy with it.

 

[RELLIK-REEF]

Okay guys, I want to try and get a better understanding of exactly how to maintain beneficial bacteria in order to defend my system against Cyano and such again. Now that it is running good I am terrified of it happening again so want to take the necessary steps for prevention. Up until now I have used my own logic and that apparently isn't the way to go. My main question is how much does my sump and its' conditions effect my display? In other words if I just let the sump get nasty and become the ocean per say with lots of oxygenation will it benefit the display? I guess what I'm trying to determine is that in my head I can't understand how my skimmer and turbulent water in my sump that is a good 30 feet away and one story down in my house can help my display? Wouldn't the water change chemistry by the time it reaches the display at that distance? I can only crank my flow in the display so much without making my fish and coral swim for their life or coral get torn apart. It's pretty turbulent in there but I'm not sure they are too happy with it.

If it grows in the sump it should beat out what would try and grow in you DT.

 

[RELLIK-REEF]

If it grows in the sump it should beat out what would try and grow in you DT.

That plus your routine cleaning.

 

[Crustaceon]

Notice how well your tank is doing at a certain nitrate and phosphate level and don’t let it fall below that level. IME, this has been 2ppm nitrates and .03 phosphates. My tank has much better coral coloration and growth at 5ppm nitrates and I have zero nuisance algae, cyano, dinos or other uglies in my display or sump. Every tank will be a little different though of course. Provided you have enough available food for bacteria and other critters in your tank/sump, the cyano will be starved out. It’s all about finding a good balance. My best advice is to avoid doing things to your tank because people on forums think it needs to be done all the time. Water changes are the biggest contributor to tank issues as stability truly is #1 and we are not keeping coral, we are keeping water. Instead, test and do things that will have a positive impact on your system and understand why you did them. My second bit of sage advice is that this hobby is often a whizzing contest between those who have the “best” tech all while their tanks suffer. Don’t feel like you have to get the most expensive or newest contraption to have success. I tell people this all the time with lighting and skimmers. The latest LED fixture isn’t going to be THAT much better than the last model LED fixture and even then, it’s not going to be that much better than a $100 Chinese black box fixture when it comes to coral growth and coloration. I know, I’ve ran all of these. The funniest part is my algae scrubber. In total, I paid around $30 in materials to build my algae scrubber, yet it can singlehandedly manage anything I can throw at it including so
much food that my niger trigger gets too full to eat. My nitrates and phosphates still won’t rise provided there is room on the screen for algae to grow. I think what many of us are really paying for is something that looks nice and the perceived value of buying something expensive. Kinda like beats headphones. It isn’t necessary and that $3,000 light money would honestly be better spent buying pizza for local reef buddies, getting invaluable information on tank upkeep and equipment as a side benefit, buying what you need for far less and having plenty left over to pick up a bunch of frags.

 

[incloud design]

Notice how well your tank is doing at a certain nitrate and phosphate level and don’t let it fall below that level. IME, this has been 2ppm nitrates and .03 phosphates. My tank has much better coral coloration and growth at 5ppm nitrates and I have zero nuisance algae, cyano, dinos or other uglies in my display or sump. Every tank will be a little different though of course. Provided you have enough available food for bacteria and other critters in your tank/sump, the cyano will be starved out. It’s all about finding a good balance. My best advice is to avoid doing things to your tank because people on forums think it needs to be done all the time. Water changes are the biggest contributor to tank issues as stability truly is #1 and we are not keeping coral, we are keeping water. Instead, test and do things that will have a positive impact on your system and understand why you did them. My second bit of sage advice is that this hobby is often a whizzing contest between those who have the “best” tech all while their tanks suffer. Don’t feel like you have to get the most expensive or newest contraption to have success. I tell people this all the time with lighting and skimmers. The latest LED fixture isn’t going to be THAT much better than the last model LED fixture and even then, it’s not going to be that much better than a $100 Chinese black box fixture when it comes to coral growth and coloration. I know, I’ve ran all of these. The funniest part is my algae scrubber. In total, I paid around $30 in materials to build my algae scrubber, yet it can singlehandedly manage anything I can throw at it including so
much food that my niger trigger gets too full to eat. My nitrates and phosphates still won’t rise provided there is room on the screen for algae to grow. I think what many of us are really paying for is something that looks nice and the perceived value of buying something expensive. Kinda like beats headphones. It isn’t necessary and that $3,000 light money would honestly be better spent buying pizza for local reef buddies, getting invaluable information on tank upkeep and equipment as a side benefit, buying what you need for far less and having plenty left over to pick up a bunch of frags.

I love your outlook on the hobby and the high school mentality of looking cool with the best, I'd imagine we have all suffered from it or will. I have a shed at my house that consists mostly of reef equipment that I had to have and now sits in a box and adds to the wasted money on pointless improvements. I feel that an ATS is an outstanding and natural biological form of filtration and of course I have one but after a month of running it with enough light to light up a football stadium and having absolutely zero growth other than a slight trickle of GHA by the dripping water coming in. So I took it out and it's in my shed, lol. I know that the only reason it wasn't doing anything is because it had nothing to fuel it as far as N03, and such. Strange thing is that I do get GHA in my 65 gallon that's attached to the whole system all over the overflow and a lot where the water enters the overflow. I would really love to get my ATS set back up but like you said earlier with no experience with one I based my attempts on other members experience and nothing worked. I don't like using chemicals and prefer to have as natural a system as possible so any words of advice on how to set up my ATS for success are welcome and appreciated. God knows I most likely have everything on hand to make it happen. Here's the ATS when I had it running and there is a valved export coming off one of my drains that was feeding it and it runs through back into my 150 sump.

 

[Crustaceon]

Make sure you have at least 2ppm nitrates to start off with, hook it up & run the scrubber for 18 hours on, 6 off and start feeding your tank like crazy. I typically feed my tank 1 cube of frozen mysis daily. If I want my scrubber to go nuts, I’ll feed up to four cubes instead. I did this back when my nitrates were much higher and I wanted to have a thick algae sheet to absorb it. Keep in mind, the more you fuel the scrubber, the more often you’ll have to harvest the algae from it and the more algae that is left on the screen, the more you’ll have to feed the tank to keep the scrubber from absorbing too much. As the algae reaches about 1” in length, clean one side of the scrubber. The following week do the other side. Eventually you’ll get on a regular cycle of harvesting each side. If the scrubber gets too efficient or you want to feed less, reduce the photoperiod to around 8 hours on.

 

[incloud design]

Make sure you have at least 2ppm nitrates to start off with, hook it up & run the scrubber for 18 hours on, 6 off and start feeding your tank like crazy. I typically feed my tank 1 cube of frozen mysis daily. If I want my scrubber to go nuts, I’ll feed up to four cubes instead. I did this back when my nitrates were much higher and I wanted to have a thick algae sheet to absorb it. Keep in mind, the more you fuel the scrubber, the more often you’ll have to harvest the algae from it and the more algae that is left on the screen, the more you’ll have to feed the tank to keep the scrubber from absorbing too much. As the algae reaches about 1” in length, clean one side of the scrubber. The following week do the other side. Eventually you’ll get on a regular cycle of harvesting each side. If the scrubber gets too efficient or you want to feed less, reduce the photoperiod to around 8 hours on.

I'm terrified to feed too much, lol and get Cyano again. But I'll listen to you. I want to try and be a bit more efficient but more importantly be sure I am using the right lighting for ATS. I have tried it with 2 30w IPS LED's and then took one out and added a grow light. I never got anything but as said before I had no nutrients so maybe my lighting was fine. It would be nice to cut down on some electricity because at this point my meter is like Nascar. But I'll spend whatever is necessary to make it work.

 

[Crustaceon]

I wouldn’t worry as much about cyano with additional feeding because the scrubber wilI absolutely take off and out-compete everything aside from beneficial bacteria and corals for nutrients. Cyano and dinos seem to thrive in really low nutrient environments where everything else can’t. Just start out with a little more food than usual and if you see the scrubber screen turning green within a few days, you’ll know it’s working. It’ll take a week or so for it to fill in. The first coating of algae might be really dark and if so, wipe it off under room temp tap water. What you want is emerald green algae as that stuff has a better ability to hold onto the screen and absorb nutrients. It can take several cleanings before the “good green” pops up. As for lighting, I run two 65 watt equivalent 2700k compact fluorescents on mine. I’ve heard red LEDs work well, but I get great results with my cheapy bulbs and less than 50watts so I have no reason to change. Scrubbers seem to do better with “warmer” light vs. the typical macro algae refugium lighting.

 

[incloud design]

I wouldn’t worry as much about cyano with additional feeding because the scrubber wilI absolutely take off and out-compete everything aside from beneficial bacteria and corals for nutrients. Cyano and dinos seem to thrive in really low nutrient environments where everything else can’t. Just start out with a little more food than usual and if you see the scrubber screen turning green within a few days, you’ll know it’s working. It’ll take a week or so for it to fill in. The first coating of algae might be really dark and if so, wipe it off under room temp tap water. What you want is emerald green algae as that stuff has a better ability to hold onto the screen and absorb nutrients. It can take several cleanings before the “good green” pops up. As for lighting, I run two 65 watt equivalent 2700k compact fluorescents on mine. I’ve heard red LEDs work well, but I get great results with my cheapy bulbs and less than 50watts so I have no reason to change. Scrubbers seem to do better with “warmer” light vs. the typical macro algae refugium lighting.

Okay I just got my Amazon order in so will be making water tonight and will get the ATS in the loop again. I'm going to sand the surface of the screen a bit to allow the algae to catch on better and I'll take a look at Lowe's tonight and see what they have for 2700k lighting. Thanks so much for your support I'll keep posting back on progress.

 

[Crustaceon]

If you have one, you can also use a hole saw bit to scuff up the surface by hand. I used one on mine on the garage floor and It does a really good job. Just be sure to leave the top 1/2” of the screen smooth to prevent growth near the scrubber slot and wipe off the plastic screen shavings that will detach. Either way, i’m surprised that scrubber didn’t come with a roughed up screen...

 

[incloud design]

If you have one, you can also use a hole saw bit to scuff up the surface by hand. I used one on mine on the garage floor and It does a really good job. Just be sure to leave the top 1/2” of the screen smooth to prevent growth near the scrubber slot and wipe off the plastic screen shavings that will detach. Either way, i’m surprised that scrubber didn’t come with a roughed up screen...

I just got it set back up and have water being made. My Amazon order came a couple hours ago so I swapped out all my RO and other filter media. I'm worried now that the algae growth in my sump from leaving the lights on for four days is not a good thing but I'm going to leave it alone. It's hard to tell down in the basement what color the algae is. I almost had a much worse problem than Cyano because i was down in the basement for a couple hours and playing around with the drains to set up the ATS and when I came up stairs there was about a 1/4" of glass left before my tank would have overflowed into my living room, not good. Just had to open the gate valve a bit and all is fine. I sanded the screen with some 60 grit sandpaper I had in my work shed. The lights are all out of that area now over the sump just in case. But the lights from the ATS are wicked bright. I'll monitor and see how things go.

 

[RELLIK-REEF]

I just got it set back up and have water being made. My Amazon order came a couple hours ago so I swapped out all my RO and other filter media. I'm worried now that the algae growth in my sump from leaving the lights on for four days is not a good thing but I'm going to leave it alone. It's hard to tell down in the basement what color the algae is. I almost had a much worse problem than Cyano because i was down in the basement for a couple hours and playing around with the drains to set up the ATS and when I came up stairs there was about a 1/4" of glass left before my tank would have overflowed into my living room, not good. Just had to open the gate valve a bit and all is fine. I sanded the screen with some 60 grit sandpaper I had in my work shed. The lights are all out of that area now over the sump just in case. But the lights from the ATS are wicked bright. I'll monitor and see how things go.

I walked away once during a water change and my float malfunctioned I had no inches left literally flush around the whole top of the sump tank. I had to turn on the pumps and remove as the level dropped before the drains kicked in... th [emoji33] [emoji33] [emoji33]

 

[incloud design]

I walked away once during a water change and my float malfunctioned I had no inches left literally flush around the whole top of the sump tank. I had to turn on the pumps and remove as the level dropped before the drains kicked in... th [emoji33] [emoji33] [emoji33]

Dangerous hobby we have here!