MB7 question

[fab1971]

Thanks for the info Paul. I agree. Those amps pack a punch. It's says use once every 2 weeks but I think I'll use mb7 in between and dose once a month instead.

 

[schminksbro]

I had the same experience.

i was in the same boat as you, i stopped the vodka for 2 weeks. used the mb7 as instuctions say for a new system, then restarted vodka from the beginning again. Ive seen some good results so far.

 

[Troylee]

I was thinking about throwing vinegar and sugar into the mix with the vodka and mb7 but unless I'm missing something here I don't know... Po4 is zero and 0 nitrates has been accomplished along time ago does anyone see a reason to go with the vsv route??? I mean biodervisity of bacteria is great but what can I expect from a ulns if I'm already there and throw those in the mix, anything????

 

[jaytizzle]

Troy, a bacterial system is the only way you can reack a true ULNS that I am aware of. This will cause some severe changes in your corals. It will basically starve them and cause the release of some of the zoox population density. This reveals the true colors of the corals. A local reefer has one of the sickest tanks around and he has been on ZEOvit for at least 3 years now. All of his corals have very different colors than anything you would normally see. A lot of things have almost a pastel appearance to them, zoanthids especially. His SPS grow STUPID fast, as well. It's kind of funny, too, because he is color blind.

 

[Paul_N]

I was thinking about throwing vinegar and sugar into the mix with the vodka and mb7 but unless I'm missing something here I don't know... Po4 is zero and 0 nitrates has been accomplished along time ago does anyone see a reason to go with the vsv route??? I mean biodervisity of bacteria is great but what can I expect from a ulns if I'm already there and throw those in the mix, anything????

I tried the vsv mixture and also just vv. I always seemed to have issues when I introduced sugar into the mix. some people reported to not have cyano issues when they used vinegar along with the vodka. I have never had a cyano problem. I would just keep on with what you are using now.

 

[beaslbob]

Greg, the bacterial driven systems are a different form of nutrient export. They create a more efficient export system than any macroalgae system out there. The end goal is to reduce nutrients and zooxanthellae populations so that you can control/modify colors in your SPS corals. I don't have links to the articles on this computer but I will try to remember to post them when I can. For some informed reading, go check out the zeovit website. They are all basically the same system just a different brand name. I used to use zeovit, that is was got me started in the ULNS methods.

I agree "bacterial" system are different. But then I have no experience.

So help me.

Does bacterial systems

1) consume ammonia first then nitrates second?
2)consume phosphates?
3)consume carbon dioxide?
4)return oxygen?
5)bioaccumulate heavy metals like copper as well as other toxins?
6)return fish food to the system?
7) provide spawing grounds for pods?


And do the various bacterial driven systems (vodka, and this stuff) kill the system when overdosed

If not I'll stick with macro algaes.

but that could be just my ingornace of bacterial driven systems.

my .02

 

[jaytizzle]

Hey Beaslbob... great questions!

Keep in mind that these answers are based only on my experience and research. I may not be 100% correct but everything is, to the best of my knowledge, pretty close. I also am not afraid to say I don't know as you will see.

First thing, please separate in your mind the concept of bacterial driven system and bacterial filtration. The bacterial driven system is based on these bacteria colonies that we introduce. They are not naturally occurring so we must dose them. This shall be referred to as a ULNS (Ultra Low Nutrient System) method from here on so as to not confuse. The bacterial filtration is made up of the naturally occurring organisms that perform the denitrification process that we often refer to as cycling.

1 - I have no idea in what order that the ammonia and nitrates are consumed, if at all. The denitrification is done entirely by your normal bacterial filtration. Adding this bacteria will not change the ammonia - to nitrite - to nitrate cycle that everyone is familiar with. Nitrates will be depeleted with the ULNS, as far as I know. I will dig up some research and try to provide that information.

2 - Yes they do consume phosphates. The ULNS will deplete nutrients. As above, I will dig up some research.

3 - I do not know if they consume CO2. My gut feeling is NO but I will check into it.

4 - I do not think that they return O2. That would be a handy feature but I don't think it works. Again, I will do some checking to get a concrete answer but I believe it is NO.

5 - No, they will not bioaccumulate toxins. I am not sure where this question is coming from. Do you have some experience in this?

6 - The bacteria from the ULNS can be consumed by the corals but not the fish. With the use of zeoliths the bacteria will grow on the surface of the rocks (zeoliths) and you "clean" the reactor daily (or every few days at least) and release the bacterial mulm into the water column. The feeding corals (SPS in most cases) will ingest the bacteria from the water column as a food source.

7 - The ULNS bacteria should not be affecting the pods in any way. The pods may feed on the bacteria, but I really have no idea. Pods are detritivores, correct?

8 - They CAN kill a system when overdosed but it doesn't work quite that way.

The biggest thing that I love about a ULNS is that it gets away from testing to maintain perfect parameters and teaches you to WATCH and OBSERVE your inhabitants. Each additive will have a different affect on your corals and it is up to you to dose something, determine its effect, and modify your dosage to achieve a desired result. If you overdose something you are going to see a change (ie cyano or diatom bloom, algae bloom, polyp retraction, etc.) that you don't necessarily like and you will know to modify that.

The only way to get beyond that perceived ignorance is to ask the questions. I applaud you for taking the time to develop well-thought questions that will benefit not only yourself but anyone else reading this thread. I hope that this has helped to shed some light on the ULNS bacterial driven systems. Please ask any other questions that you may have.

To everyone else - If you have questions, POST THEM HERE. I'm not anti-PM but if you PM me then it doesn't serve the greater good of educating everyone. This has been a great discussion and I would like to keep it going that way.

 

[Troylee]

bacteria doesn't consume co2 in fact it consumes o2 therefore dropping your ph.... dosing should only be done during the light cycle to help prevent a sudden drop of o2 levels and ph.... it's also a good practice to dose the mb7 in the display and the vodka into the sump so you don't get a bacteria bloom, causing cloudy water...

 

[JRF]

Hi
Is the "mulm" from the zeolite visible? In other words, Im wondering if I will see it in the tank as I flush out the zeo stones..
Thanks

 

[jaytizzle]

It depends on a few factors as to whether the mulm will be visible. How often you clean the reactor, how quick your bacterial populations grow, your general water clarity, etc. Under normal circumstances I would say no. I have never seen any mulm visible in my display. I have seen a change in clarity in my sump and especially on the outlet of the reactor when I clean it to release the mulm.

 

[JRF]

Great, thanks!

 

[beaslbob]

Hey Beaslbob... great questions!

Keep in mind that these answers are based only on my experience and research. I may not be 100% correct but everything is, to the best of my knowledge, pretty close. I also am not afraid to say I don't know as you will see.

First thing, please separate in your mind the concept of bacterial driven system and bacterial filtration. The bacterial driven system is based on these bacteria colonies that we introduce. They are not naturally occurring so we must dose them. This shall be referred to as a ULNS (Ultra Low Nutrient System) method from here on so as to not confuse. The bacterial filtration is made up of the naturally occurring organisms that perform the denitrification process that we often refer to as cycling.

1 - I have no idea in what order that the ammonia and nitrates are consumed, if at all. The denitrification is done entirely by your normal bacterial filtration. Adding this bacteria will not change the ammonia - to nitrite - to nitrate cycle that everyone is familiar with. Nitrates will be depeleted with the ULNS, as far as I know. I will dig up some research and try to provide that information.

2 - Yes they do consume phosphates. The ULNS will deplete nutrients. As above, I will dig up some research.

3 - I do not know if they consume CO2. My gut feeling is NO but I will check into it.

4 - I do not think that they return O2. That would be a handy feature but I don't think it works. Again, I will do some checking to get a concrete answer but I believe it is NO.

5 - No, they will not bioaccumulate toxins. I am not sure where this question is coming from. Do you have some experience in this?

6 - The bacteria from the ULNS can be consumed by the corals but not the fish. With the use of zeoliths the bacteria will grow on the surface of the rocks (zeoliths) and you "clean" the reactor daily (or every few days at least) and release the bacterial mulm into the water column. The feeding corals (SPS in most cases) will ingest the bacteria from the water column as a food source.

7 - The ULNS bacteria should not be affecting the pods in any way. The pods may feed on the bacteria, but I really have no idea. Pods are detritivores, correct?

8 - They CAN kill a system when overdosed but it doesn't work quite that way.

The biggest thing that I love about a ULNS is that it gets away from testing to maintain perfect parameters and teaches you to WATCH and OBSERVE your inhabitants. Each additive will have a different affect on your corals and it is up to you to dose something, determine its effect, and modify your dosage to achieve a desired result. If you overdose something you are going to see a change (ie cyano or diatom bloom, algae bloom, polyp retraction, etc.) that you don't necessarily like and you will know to modify that.

The only way to get beyond that perceived ignorance is to ask the questions. I applaud you for taking the time to develop well-thought questions that will benefit not only yourself but anyone else reading this thread. I hope that this has helped to shed some light on the ULNS bacterial driven systems. Please ask any other questions that you may have.

To everyone else - If you have questions, POST THEM HERE. I'm not anti-PM but if you PM me then it doesn't serve the greater good of educating everyone. This has been a great discussion and I would like to keep it going that way.

Been away for a few days but did want to thank you for the time and effort in this response. Obviously I am a macro algae fan. but each to his own. And I do not have experience with sps corals and perhaps that is why.

I did want to respond to your comments on bioaccumulation of toxins. Macro have two methods biosorption (dead macros) and bioaccumulation of live macros. Both of those big words are probably misspelled.

Anyrate dried seaweed is used for enviromental cleanup and even to process industrial waste water to remove things like cadmium.

live macros also accumulate (filter out) things like copper as they consume nitates phosphates and so on. In one study a macro algae exposed to 250ppm had copper level increase from 30 mg/l to 1040mg/l in a two week period. Further the accumulation was linear with the exposure time and copper concentration of the enviroment. At first is was really excited when I calculated the 1/10 pound of that macro would accumulate 250ppm copper in a 55g tank in two weeks. But then I recalculated and it was 100 pounds. :wink:

But even with mistake some people report that when treating ich in a FO qt, the presence of macros required many times more copper addition to be effective.

Perhaps vodka, zviot, mk7 or whatever is an effective mthod.

But I doubt it will never equal the balancing out and stabilizing tank opertion of macro algaes (or other plant life).

Meahwhile I'll just use $5 of macros and keep dosing calcium,alk, magnesium.

my .02:bigsmile: