Mindstream Aquarium Monitor

[Shep]

I backed this for a December delivery, but unfortunately it doesn't look like it's going to make it :/ I think they are missing some big selling points by not engaging with the potential buyers in forums and such

That is true but I also think A) not too many people have $500 to just drop on a piece of equipment and B) I think some people are hesitant to drop that much on a something that has yet to be proven. I think once it comes out and works like they say it will they will have no problems selling them.

 

[BetURWrasse]

$500?? If you don't get in on the Kickstarter they have said the the unit will be between 700-900, now that's expensive. And then 30-50 a month for disks. I just wish they would say what those final prices are going to be for sure. At least the disks.
$30= $360yr
$40= $480yr
$50= $600
I mean those are big differences.

 

[evolved]

I backed this for a December delivery, but unfortunately it doesn't look like it's going to make it :/

I still see a chance if they kill it at MACNA. It's not coincidental the kickstarter ends on Sunday when they have a couple sessions on the MACNA schedule.

I think they are missing some big selling points by not engaging with the potential buyers in forums and such

Well, they are a sponsor here now (https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/mindstream.820/), but albeit have not yet shown any activity.

$500?? If you don't get in on the Kickstarter they have said the the unit will be between 700-900, now that's expensive. And then 30-50 a month for disks. I just wish they would say what those final prices are going to be for sure. At least the disks.
$30= $360yr
$40= $480yr
$50= $600
I mean those are big differences.

True, but there's also the tank-to-tank variable of how long the disks will last for you. Your estimates are possibly a worst-case.

 

[reef_ranch]

I hope they do well at MACNA, but, with all of the time money and effort already invested, perhaps they have a back up plan to launch even if they do not meet the $300k goal.

 

[lexinverts]

I'm puzzled by the degree of push-back from people regarding the cost. This is a device that is groundbreaking in many respects ---- there isn't anything else out there that can do continuous monitoring of Alk, Ca, Mg, CO2, O2, etc...

On the other hand, tons of people will drop $750 on a Radion fixture when there are alternatives that work just about as well (IMHO) for less than 1/3 the price.

$700 plus the yearly disc replacement cost is certainly not "chump change," but neither is almost anything else in this hobby. Heck, I easily spend more than the high end of the estimated disc replacement cost on just frags every month. I also spend quite a bit monthly on my Salifert and Hanna test kits. At least this device will save me money on test kits that I don't have to buy, it will save me quite a bit of time (which is worth something too), and it will make it less likely that the money spent on corals is lost due to an alkalinity spike, etc...

I have no doubt this device will be successful, even at the estimated price point, once they get over the hump and get it launched.

 

[BetURWrasse]

I still see a chance if they kill it at MACNA. It's not coincidental the kickstarter ends on Sunday when they have a couple sessions on the MACNA schedule.


Well, they are a sponsor here now (https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/mindstream.820/), but albeit have not yet shown any activity.


True, but there's also the tank-to-tank variable of how long the disks will last for you. Your estimates are possibly a worst-case.

My estimates are based of of what they said. I just want to know the actual cost.

On another note I got them to respond on FB and they say they will start engaging people on here to get some better answers.

 

[TheEngineer]

Forgive my TLDR response here, but I'm happy to have stumbled across this.

I share the concerns everyone else has said about the cost of the equipment and the cost of the replacement discs. To me, even more concerning is the fact that this needs to be hooked into their system to get any results. That means you could buy years worth of discs, spends a few thousand dollars and in 6 months time have a very expensive paperweight if these guys don't make it.

Additionally, what's to stop them from making the cloud-based service a paid service? It is free for now, but what if they realize they can monetize that element?

Is this really cool? Seemingly, yes! Does this represent a potential big leap for our hooby? Seemingly, yes! Will I buy it? Nope.

 

[evolved]

My estimates are based of of what they said.

Right, but they've also said it's a 30 day minimum. They may (and probably will) last longer on some systems.

 

[sonnus]

Here are some interesting things I've gathered from watching the Reef Nation videos.

About the Disks:

• Apparently you don't have to replace the disk every 30 days. This is an approximate time given by Mindstream and they mention the video that a disk could last several months.
• If you don't replace the disk then the readings will start to vary more and more with age. Mindstream seems to be trying to deliver very high performance from the monitor. I think that most of us will not need the kind of precision that they are trying to maintain.
• Lifespan of the disks is mostly determined by the number of readings (light cycles) it's put through. If it is possible to limit the reading to once an hour instead of every 20 minutes the lifespan of the disks should increase. It would be great if Mindstream will give us the option to specify the readings per day so we can choose frequent checks (short lifespan) or less frequent checks (longer lifespan?).
• Biofouling on the disk can be automatically detected by the monitor's "patch scan". The monitor takes random readings from across the film surface and if any variations in the readings are detected the monitor will notify the user that their disk need to be cleaned.
• 12 sensors will be on the initial disk but this can be expanded up to 24. The redundancy of the readings does go down with additional films but this might not be an issue. Since the disks have RFID chips the monitor will automatically detect the type of disk that is used.
• Sensor technology is derived from the medical field, this means that it is tried-and-true technology. Also, since it's from the medical field many of their tests can be incorporated easily into the Mindstream. They mentioned iron and other heavy metals.
• Blue light is used to excite the fluorescent film on the disk. The monitor then reads the fluorescence to get a measurement.

About the Monitor:

• Alkalinity, calcium, potassium, magnesium, CO2, O2, temperature, salinity, ammonia and pH are the initial measurements but the monitor can read many others depending on what is included in future disks.
• This technology is "sound and robust" according to Mindstream. It was developed for medical use and was not been developed from scratch.
• The monitor is placed inside the aquarium or sump and the power source is on the outside and is magnetically coupled to the monitor (like a Vortech).
• There is a suction cup on the power supply so it will stay in place when you remove the monitor to clean it or replace disks.
• There are multiple reader heads and the monitor can automatically detect a problem with one of the readers and adjust the measurements accordingly.
• The monitor is buoyant.
• Mindstream prefers that the monitor is placed in the display tank to get more reliable measurements. The o2 measurements in the sump may be high compared to the display because of the skimmer.
• The monitor is connected through Wi-Fi to Mindstreams cloud based servers where all of the calculations are made. The Wi-Fi does not travel through the water very well so the monitor's top should be above the water level or the wireless router should be on the same side of the tank as the monitor.
• The monitor will notify the user of problems through text message or email.
• Alkalinity is the only parameter that is derived from several other parameters. All other parameter are directly read from the monitor.
• Maximum glass/acrylic thickness is 3/4".
• User interface is currently web-based but Mindstream hopes to have an app by MACNA.
• Monitor can overlay plots in 24 hour intervals.
• Moisture sensor built into the monitor so it will detect if there is a leak and notify the user.
• Mindstream is looking into integrating their monitor with existing aquarium products (hopefully Neptune).

 

[BetURWrasse]

Here are some interesting things I've gathered from watching the Reef Nation videos.

About the Disks:

• Apparently you don't have to replace the disk every 30 days. This is an approximate time given by Mindstream and they mention the video that a disk could last several months.
• If you don't replace the disk then the readings will start to vary more and more with age. Mindstream seems to be trying to deliver very high performance from the monitor. I think that most of us will not need the kind of precision that they are trying to maintain.
• Lifespan of the disks is mostly determined by the number of readings (light cycles) it's put through. If it is possible to limit the reading to once an hour instead of every 20 minutes the lifespan of the disks should increase. It would be great if Mindstream will give us the option to specify the readings per day so we can choose frequent checks (short lifespan) or less frequent checks (longer lifespan?).
• Biofouling on the disk can be automatically detected by the monitor's "patch scan". The monitor takes random readings from across the film surface and if any variations in the readings are detected the monitor will notify the user that their disk need to be cleaned.
• 12 sensors will be on the initial disk but this can be expanded up to 24. The redundancy of the readings does go down with additional films but this might not be an issue. Since the disks have RFID chips the monitor will automatically detect the type of disk that is used.
• Sensor technology is derived from the medical field, this means that it is tried-and-true technology. Also, since it's from the medical field many of their tests can be incorporated easily into the Mindstream. They mentioned iron and other heavy metals.
• Blue light is used to excite the fluorescent film on the disk. The monitor then reads the fluorescence to get a measurement.

About the Monitor:

• Alkalinity, calcium, potassium, magnesium, CO2, O2, temperature, salinity, ammonia and pH are the initial measurements but the monitor can read many others depending on what is included in future disks.
• This technology is "sound and robust" according to Mindstream. It was developed for medical use and was not been developed from scratch.
• The monitor is placed inside the aquarium or sump and the power source is on the outside and is magnetically coupled to the monitor (like a Vortech).
• There is a suction cup on the power supply so it will stay in place when you remove the monitor to clean it or replace disks.
• There are multiple reader heads and the monitor can automatically detect a problem with one of the readers and adjust the measurements accordingly.
• The monitor is buoyant.
• Mindstream prefers that the monitor is placed in the display tank to get more reliable measurements. The o2 measurements in the sump may be high compared to the display because of the skimmer.
• The monitor is connected through Wi-Fi to Mindstreams cloud based servers where all of the calculations are made. The Wi-Fi does not travel through the water very well so the monitor's top should be above the water level or the wireless router should be on the same side of the tank as the monitor.
• The monitor will notify the user of problems through text message or email.
• Alkalinity is the only parameter that is derived from several other parameters. All other parameter are directly read from the monitor.
• Maximum glass/acrylic thickness is 3/4".
• User interface is currently web-based but Mindstream hopes to have an app by MACNA.
• Monitor can overlay plots in 24 hour intervals.
• Moisture sensor built into the monitor so it will detect if there is a leak and notify the user.
• Mindstream is looking into integrating their monitor with existing aquarium products (hopefully Neptune).

Great summary

 

[DaveMorris]

While I am very interested in this monitor, I am still not impressed with the cost. $600 or so initially is okay by me but this whole disk thing is a game stopper to me. I want them to tell me how long before replacing discs because this whole thing about "you may get more than 30 days per disc" is silly. If you don't know that the readings are accurate, what is the point? Are you supposed to wait until readings start to drop and then replace the disc? What if things are dropping for a completely different reason?

The other thing that really bothers me is the fact that they are pretty much non-existent in threads like this one. How about answering some of these questions directly? I don't want to go watch a video clip that is basically a commercial. I want to see answers directly from the company to the questions that we all have. If they don't know yet then just say that. We know its a brand new product and some answers may not be available yet, but at least acknowledge that we are here. What is it really going to cost to operate long term? What happens if the company website goes down? Any plans for a stand alone version so we do not have to rely on the company's cloud server always being there?

 

[Aquaph8]

Here are some interesting things I've gathered from watching the Reef Nation videos.

About the Disks:

• Apparently you don't have to replace the disk every 30 days. This is an approximate time given by Mindstream and they mention the video that a disk could last several months.
• If you don't replace the disk then the readings will start to vary more and more with age. Mindstream seems to be trying to deliver very high performance from the monitor. I think that most of us will not need the kind of precision that they are trying to maintain.
• Lifespan of the disks is mostly determined by the number of readings (light cycles) it's put through. If it is possible to limit the reading to once an hour instead of every 20 minutes the lifespan of the disks should increase. It would be great if Mindstream will give us the option to specify the readings per day so we can choose frequent checks (short lifespan) or less frequent checks (longer lifespan?).
• Biofouling on the disk can be automatically detected by the monitor's "patch scan". The monitor takes random readings from across the film surface and if any variations in the readings are detected the monitor will notify the user that their disk need to be cleaned.
• 12 sensors will be on the initial disk but this can be expanded up to 24. The redundancy of the readings does go down with additional films but this might not be an issue. Since the disks have RFID chips the monitor will automatically detect the type of disk that is used.
• Sensor technology is derived from the medical field, this means that it is tried-and-true technology. Also, since it's from the medical field many of their tests can be incorporated easily into the Mindstream. They mentioned iron and other heavy metals.
• Blue light is used to excite the fluorescent film on the disk. The monitor then reads the fluorescence to get a measurement.

About the Monitor:

• Alkalinity, calcium, potassium, magnesium, CO2, O2, temperature, salinity, ammonia and pH are the initial measurements but the monitor can read many others depending on what is included in future disks.
• This technology is "sound and robust" according to Mindstream. It was developed for medical use and was not been developed from scratch.
• The monitor is placed inside the aquarium or sump and the power source is on the outside and is magnetically coupled to the monitor (like a Vortech).
• There is a suction cup on the power supply so it will stay in place when you remove the monitor to clean it or replace disks.
• There are multiple reader heads and the monitor can automatically detect a problem with one of the readers and adjust the measurements accordingly.
• The monitor is buoyant.
• Mindstream prefers that the monitor is placed in the display tank to get more reliable measurements. The o2 measurements in the sump may be high compared to the display because of the skimmer.
• The monitor is connected through Wi-Fi to Mindstreams cloud based servers where all of the calculations are made. The Wi-Fi does not travel through the water very well so the monitor's top should be above the water level or the wireless router should be on the same side of the tank as the monitor.
• The monitor will notify the user of problems through text message or email.
• Alkalinity is the only parameter that is derived from several other parameters. All other parameter are directly read from the monitor.
• Maximum glass/acrylic thickness is 3/4".
• User interface is currently web-based but Mindstream hopes to have an app by MACNA.
• Monitor can overlay plots in 24 hour intervals.
• Moisture sensor built into the monitor so it will detect if there is a leak and notify the user.
• Mindstream is looking into integrating their monitor with existing aquarium products (hopefully Neptune).

I'd be happy if I had something to do an alk reading once a day

 

[sonnus]

The other thing that really bothers me is the fact that they are pretty much non-existent in threads like this one. How about answering some of these questions directly? I don't want to go watch a video clip that is basically a commercial. I want to see answers directly from the company to the questions that we all have. If they don't know yet then just say that. We know its a brand new product and some answers may not be available yet, but at least acknowledge that we are here. What is it really going to cost to operate long term? What happens if the company website goes down? Any plans for a stand alone version so we do not have to rely on the company's cloud server always being there?

Mindstream has been incredibly responsive to my questions and can be reached through their website, Facebook or Kickstarter. They certainly are not avoiding the public as they have answered EVERY question I've sent them within 24 hrs.

I think it's a unreasonable to expect the company to post on this forum or any of the other dozens of forums out there. They've actually made themselves way more approachable than many other companies I've dealt with.

 

[lexinverts]

While I am very interested in this monitor, I am still not impressed with the cost. $600 or so initially is okay by me but this whole disk thing is a game stopper to me. I want them to tell me how long before replacing discs because this whole thing about "you may get more than 30 days per disc" is silly. If you don't know that the readings are accurate, what is the point? Are you supposed to wait until readings start to drop and then replace the disc? What if things are dropping for a completely different reason?

Well, since they are leading a workshop at MACNA, you can talk to them personally about your concerns.

"Silly" that they are not sure exactly how long the discs will last for every user? They will promise everyone 30 days. They also know that the fluoresence capability of the discs will last longer than 30 days, but they are unsure about variation in biofouling from tank to tank. Since it is a brand new product that has not been in thousands of tanks yet, they don't know how much the disc life will vary from tank to tank. That's the kind of uncertainty that you have in a brand new product. What is "silly" about that? It sounds like you want something that has been out in the "field" for years before you will commit. That's fine for you. For me, I'm excited enough about this concept to take the plunge and venture into new territory.

 

[Amoo]

Well, they are a sponsor here now (https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/mindstream.820/), but albeit have not yet shown any activity.

Incredibly frustrating....I'm sure after MACNA they might post something here and there, but this doesn't give me the warm fuzzy at all. It's great that they took the time to decide to become a sponsor here, but I'm not sure they understand what makes a lot of the R2R sponsors successful. It's not just the few 100 $ they throw at the site every year, but the time they spend interacting with the community.

 

[BetURWrasse]

They are "monitoring" but not saying anything

 

[eg8r210]

Incredibly frustrating....I'm sure after MACNA they might post something here and there, but this doesn't give me the warm fuzzy at all. It's great that they took the time to decide to become a sponsor here, but I'm not sure they understand what makes a lot of the R2R sponsors successful. It's not just the few 100 $ they throw at the site every year, but the time they spend interacting with the community.

I would much rather them spend their time completing the project then reading endless posts of how people are upset with the price and why the discs only last 30 days. My goodness, with all the posts here you would think the massive number of social media marketing geniuses here at R2R would be rolling in the dough and not care one bit about the price. Let the people do what they have to do to get the product to the market, they have already stated they will be available at MACNA, and get off their backs.

 

[lysaer]

Guys, I'm pretty new to this hobby and am not quite to the point many of you are with multiple high-volume tanks and dosing 18 different elements, but here's my thoughts on the cost matter.

Initial cost: Let's say $700 as that's the highest retail cost I've seen. Discs: Let's say $30/month with the discs being swapped out every 30 days. Total first year cost: $1,060 US. Additional years: $360.

Now, let's look at test kits. Salifert seems to be a highly recommended brand, so let's use those. And let's say a Salifert kit, on average, lasts 3 months before you use it up. And let's use Amazon pricing because that tends to be the lowest average price.

Ammonia: $21, Magnesium: $19, Calcium: $19, Potassium: $25 (not amazon, elsewhere), Kh/Alk: $15, pH: $19, CO2: Not available, requires probe/control unit (as far as I can tell), O2: Not available, requires probe/control unit (as far as I can tell), Temperature: Thermometer costs vary - say $5 for a cheapo external display wired probe like I have, Salinity: Refractometers range from $22-$75

First quarter cost: $126. Additional quarters: $99. Yearly cost: $423.

Yes, that's a lot less up front than the Mindstream. And the Mindstream does not monitor nitrites/nitrates (initial sensors: Alkalinity, calcium, potassium, magnesium, CO2, O2, temperature, salinity, ammonia and pH) but clearly has the capacity to add later. However, you're manually titrating solutions in vials and jars to get the chemical numbers, and if you want CO2 and O2 numbers you have to buy something with a probe that can monitor that stuff, so that's added value with the Mindstream. Plus, to my mind, the saving of labor over time is great when I can just pull up a website or my phone and check the tank status - especially if I'm away from home for an extended time when I would normally be there to make adjustments as needed.

But a little further break down of cost reveals:

Mindstream: 5 year cost: $2500. Monthly average cost over 5 years: $41.67
Manual testing: 5 year cost: $2007. Monthly average cost over 5 years: $33.45

Now the numbers look more reasonable. That's a monthly difference of $8.22. I bet most people spend more than that on lunch at least once a month.

There are many variables here too. If the discs cost $60/month, that's a substantial increase. But if the discs last 3 months in your tank, that's $20/month for the disc at the highest price, lowering the monthly average even further. Speaking of lasting 1-3 months or more, look at what Mindstream has said - they maintain the highest accuracy for a guaranteed 30 days. How accurate do you want your values? From everything I'm reading/hearing/seeing, the discs will maintain higher accuracy than a titration test for several months.

So let's use a best case scenario: $30 discs, you get the unit in the kickstarter, and the discs last 3 months in your tank with regular cleaning (surely, if you're saving 2 hours of testing time every week you can take 10 minutes to rinse the disc in RO/DI water).

Unit: $495 w/1 disc. 3 add'l discs: $90. Yearly cost: $585. 5 year cost: $1065. Monthly average cost over 5 years: $17.75. That's almost HALF the cost of test kits.

To sum up: Long term, it does not cost substantially more than test kits. And I wish I had the initial investment to drop on it via kickstarter, but I've spent too much money on my tank already for the year.

 

[TylerS]

There are a few things bothering me about this. The biggest is that their prices keep going up. They started saying less than $600 and $30 for 90 day disks. Now it's $700 to $900 and $30-50 for 30 day disks. This imply's some not so good things. One possibility is an underestimation of the costs to produce their product. What if they underestimate the server costs, will they then just tack on a monthly access fee for the server (more likely the server costs are built into the disk cost, so then will the disk cost just go up?). I think they need to decide if they want their product in 80% of tanks, or only 5% of tanks. Right now I'm guessing they're looking at 5% of tanks with a small market size to begin with.

There's a concept with start-ups along the lines of a "lean startup" where you launch with the minimal feasible product to gauge customer interest and allow for product revisions at a low cost and get the company profitable as fast as possible, then you implement improvements to the product to launch the premium versions later. What they are doing is the complete opposite of that (Tesla roadster style... look how many years of loses that company had). I'm hoping they put some consideration into reducing features for reduced costs...

 

[lexinverts]

Now they are here to answer our questions.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/were-here.211821/