Mindstream

[NeverlosT]

This situation is a real bummer. In my opinion, it is partially on Mindstream, but it is also on the consumers (I don't mean to sound insensitive). You bought a completely unproven piece of tech, from a company with either zero track record or a bad track record, and unfortunately you may be out a lot of money. We all get excited about new tech and ideas, but I think we need to (as a group) be a bit more scrupulous and require data to show that any new tech can consistently perform as promised which may require a bit more patience.

Unfortunately in the reef aquarium industry it is somewhat normal to offer a product and have it work terribly or have significant issues in the first generation. Companies are essentially using customers, paying full price, as beta testers. This is poor form for anyone especially when livestock lives are on the line. The keys to this are the consumers. These lofty promises are snake-oil unless proven via data, supported via satisfactory customer/technical support, and with a warranty that not only covers broken units but also critical changes in performance. These things are not cheap! Heck you can buy a big flatscreen TV for this price. Expect more from your vendors!

I hope that the folks in this thread who bought in do get good closure and I hope that other companies view the mindstream example as something to learn from.

 

[Oldreefer44]

As an owner who talked directly with the CEO and has decades of experience dealing with CEO level executives I would make the following observations with the qualification that they are largely opinion; not provable facts. While leading a successful business career I wish I could say the same about my reefing prowess.
1. When it worked, it was great. I have owned Apex, and GHL systems. Mindstream was by far the easiest install and use. IMO, the issue was that the sensors were impacted by animal or plant life too easily. This could possibly be resolved if the monitor were enclosed and the water filtered much like the KHD is.
2. There are whole companies based on the idea that they can mislead customers and vendors as to the health of a company. Just ask the vendors for Toys R Us. The company was bought with the idea that it would eventually be stripped of all its assets and eventually liquidated. All the while the CEO was publicly stating that the company was healthy and was purchasing merchandise that they knew wouldn't ever be paid for. Laws are set up by the wealthy, for the wealthy as are the bankruptcy statutes. The likelihood of any criminal charges are minimal because you would have to prove intent to defraud. Too little money involved to be worthwhile for any large investigatory body to bother with. A civil lawsuit could be filed but again would cost more than it would be worth because there does not appear to be assets to recover.
3. The job of a CEO is to represent the best interests of the ownership group or person. In my experience their voracity when sharing information to the public is on par with politicians and used car salesmen and are excellent at obfuscation. The one exception is when they are filing with or making statements to the SEC or shareholders. After my discussion with Brian I felt conflicted as I felt that there was an honest effort to make it work but also an unwillingness to be transparent.
4. In hindsight, it is apparent that they probably did release it out of desperation with the hope that they could overcome issues on the fly. There is no excuse for this IMO. While no big deal to some of us, to others this kind of money can be a problem. Therefore, even if SAI were to be resurrected,I would not give my money to an entity I felt acted unethically. However, if this technology were to be brought out by someone else in a reliable form, I would jump on it.

Lastly, I realize that I now face the usual "picking apart" of the above statements. As previously stated they are only my personal opinions which can be taken any way one wants. I view the Mindstream story to be quite sad but unfortunately all to common.

 

[RCeiver]

Doubts are allowed, but who knows, maybe all it needs is a fresh look by an actual team of industry professionals. In your lab testing expert opinion, what makes you think it could never work?

This company seems to have scammed people. They never released beta testers from their NDA in order to prevent them from sharing their experience. Why? If the product actually worked, there would have been no need to do that. The few people that had production units, it seems a majority of them had issues with drifting values or disks that weren’t calibrated with their units. The investors apparently decided that the product was a dead end and that it was best for them to cut their losses than to continue to invest. The company didn’t announce their closure, but snuck off in the middle of the night.

You don’t need to be an expert lab tester to see the writing on the wall. All signs point to the fact that this technology never really worked consistently and reliably, which is the one thing we need in a reef tank.

 

[MnFish1]

This company seems to have scammed people. They never released beta testers from their NDA in order to prevent them from sharing their experience. Why? If the product actually worked, there would have been no need to do that. The few people that had production units, it seems a majority of them had issues with drifting values or disks that weren’t calibrated with their units. The investors apparently decided that the product was a dead end and that it was best for them to cut their losses than to continue to invest. The company didn’t announce their closure, but snuck off in the middle of the night.

You don’t need to be an expert lab tester to see the writing on the wall. All signs point to the fact that this technology never really worked consistently and reliably, which is the one thing we need in a reef tank.

Curious - do you have direct knowledge of the NDA release? If so - how? Where do you get the data you're quoting about the majority of people having issues - I mean - without mentioning any names - many people who bought a new product here a couple years ago (not from SAI) - had issues - and were told - its not widespread - its only people that have problems that complain - now thats evidence of 'scamming'. Im sorry - I just don't get the logic.

To me there is a difference between a poor business decision and a deliberate fraud/scam. I may be blind - but I dont see it here

 

[JoshH]

Curious - do you have direct knowledge of the NDA release? If so - how? Where do you get the data you're quoting about the majority of people having issues - I mean - without mentioning any names - many people who bought a new product here a couple years ago (not from SAI) - had issues - and were told - its not widespread - its only people that have problems that complain - now thats evidence of 'scamming'. Im sorry - I just don't get the logic.

To me there is a difference between a poor business decision and a deliberate fraud/scam. I may be blind - but I dont see it here

Clearly you don't have the same agenda as some others here who's entire post history or the vast majority of them are solely on bashing a product they have never owned or had the chance to run themselves...

 

[Silver14SS]

Clearly you don't have the same agenda as some others here who's entire post history or the vast majority of them are solely on bashing a product they have never owned or had the chance to run themselves...

golly, the inverse of that sure would be silly too

 

[JoshH]

golly, the inverse of that sure would be silly too

I agree, but I don't see those who are or were hopeful Mindstream thrived with the same track record...

 

[SandJ]

This situation is a real bummer. In my opinion, it is partially on Mindstream, but it is also on the consumers (I don't mean to sound insensitive). You bought a completely unproven piece of tech, from a company with either zero track record or a bad track record, and unfortunately you may be out a lot of money.

I bought one just after MACNA. I felt like I had done my research into the product. I have been talking with them at shows since the DC MACNA in 2015. After talking With them for over an hour at MACNA 2019, I felt comfortable with the answers I was receiving. I was told I could cancel the order at any point before it shipped and I had 30 days to return it after I received it and receive a full refund.
I was given an 8 week shipping window. It was not sold as a pre order or anything.
It is not like this is a brand new company. It has been around for years. I was under the impression it was through with beta testing and released to the general public (as of July 1st).

 

[Darrell Brady]

I would you appreciate for you to explain how this would work. according to this article - they cannot. (unless they notify you 45 days a head of time - and you can call them and get the reason. They can only do it if you've has the card >1 year. https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-cards/credit-card-issuer-raising-interest-rate-5-times/

Here is an article;https://www.creditcardinsider.com/blog/dispute-fraudulent-credit-card-charge/. That says the card company 'eats' the charge if they cannot get ahold of the merchant. However - if you look at multiple sources - credit card companies and Merchants can buy Chargeback insurance - so that its actually those companies that 'pay'.

Credit card companies also get money back from the interest you pay, as well as the yearly charges. But as far as I can tell - they will not increase your interest rates.

Interest rates go up all the time. If there bottem line is affected they will raise rates to offset costs whether it be bad loans or whatever.

 

[MnFish1]

Interest rates go up all the time. If there bottem line is affected they will raise rates to offset costs whether it be bad loans or whatever.

A company does not have the right to raise your rates for a dispute according to the article I posted. Except with certain rare exceptions. If they do you can complain. That said they can always raise other fees. It most cc have insurance policies of their own to handle these thing

 

[kzp]

I liked your post - but I dont think it was 'unethical'. A willing buyer agreed to those terms. In fact one of the reasons I delayed some in ordering was that concern. But otherwise I agree - they were people that were well meaning - not fraudulent. At least - I havent seen any evidence of anything like that - in fact I'm amazed that so many posts seem to claim it - because that the company locked its doors. Now I agree thats a bad sign - and likely they have ceased business - but claiming fraud implies that this was a plan - rather than a sudden problem - and I don't know who would know that except the company itself

"....the company locked its doors" and you "agree that's a bad sign - and likely they have ceased business"? Am I missing something? Is there any other interpretation of this outcome but to "being a bad sign"? Why do you say that they "likely" "ceased business" when multiple former employees (including Ryan) have gone on the record to say that they HAVE ceased operating and laid off all employees?

 

[Dj City]

This thread needs to be locked.
There is no viable reason for it to continue.

SAI appears to be out of business but we are NOT SURE of that. We only know what was posted by members here and on FB. We can make educated guesses and reasonable assumptions based on all the info we have read. None of which has been official.

The one thing that is certain is that this thread has degraded and no longer serves any viable purpose besides venting and arguing.

Bottom line is...
We don't KNOW what's really up.
We ain't stupid...
We're have a pretty good idea what's up but... we don't KNOW.

 

[SandJ]

@Dj City I agree that all we can do is speculate what is happening with the company. I know I am still out over $700 from them and I am going to see if the Vermont Attorney General can find out for sure what is happening.

 

[JoshH]

This thread needs to be locked.
There is no viable reason for it to continue.

SAI appears to be out of business but we are NOT SURE of that. We only know what was posted by members here and on FB. We can make educated guesses and reasonable assumptions based on all the info we have read. None of which has been official.

The one thing that is certain is that this thread has degraded and no longer serves any viable purpose besides venting and arguing.

Bottom line is...
We don't KNOW what's really up.
We ain't stupid...
We're have a pretty good idea what's up but... we don't KNOW.

I agree that the thread has degraded. And that no one really knows 100% what's going on. But I hope that the thread atleast stays open. @SandJ if you do have a Mindstream and would like to keep it, as I mentioned above, maybe another route to go is to contact Coralvue and let them know your thoughts.

All those being so negative at this point aren't really helping or being of any use in a meaningful way except repeating the same stuff over and over. Maybe there is another, more positive solution... it's atleast worth the effort of an email if it might save the investment and time of so many...

 

[SandJ]

@SandJ if you do have a Mindstream and would like to keep it, as I mentioned above, maybe another route to go is to contact Coralvue and let them know your thoughts.

Unfortunately, I am out the money and never received a product. And they are not responding to me. I have not tried to be a negative energy on these threads. However, they have my money and will not respond or refund. There are not many other options to feel beside negative. And I have no idea what their intentions were, I can only see their actions (or lack of).

And I know I have tried venting these thoughts to MS, but I am not hearing anything back. For me, this is a way to vent those feelings, and keep in the loop about the status (like checking with the credit card company...I did not realize some had a time limit).
I still believe in the product, just not the company. I will be letting CoralVue know that I am still interested.

 

[RCeiver]

All those being so negative at this point aren't really helping or being of any use in a meaningful way except repeating the same stuff over and over. Maybe there is another, more positive solution... it's atleast worth the effort of an email if it might save the investment and time of so many...

People defending this company aren’t really helping or being any use in a meaningful way either. What we need is a thread that is clear that this company is closed, the investors left, there isn’t a working product, and people should contact their credit card for a refund. ASAP.

That would be helpful.

 

[Dj City]

Hopeless...

 

[JoshH]

People defending this company aren’t really helping or being any use in a meaningful way either.

Well some are atleast making an attempt at another alternative. And without a definite answer from anyone at SAI, as mentioned above, it's all speculative so until that message comes out, that thread can wait.

Hopeless...

Then move on. Theres an Unfollow button at the top of the thread, just like theres an ignore button as well. Pretty simple.

 

[Dj City]

Then move on. Theres an Unfollow button at the top of the thread, just like theres an ignore button as well. Pretty simple.

Who do you think you talking to like that?
You a internet gangsta or something?

I think this thread is hopeless. It is a hopeless thread IMO. If you don't like it or don't like what you read or don't like what I type...
YOU move on! You unfollow or ignore.

Miss me with the drama!

I did not direct that post at anyone.
I have not been rude or disrespectful to anyone in this thread or anyone on R2R since joining years ago.

You need to check that little funky attitude you got bruh...
I ain't appreciating it and I will let you know that every chance I get if that need arises.

 

[Brian_68]

This thread does have some use as a learning experience IMO. A company can make claims and produce a few golden samples that look great in a controlled environment but in real life in production quantity that is another story. This was not an established company by any means and new product development is not easy, or predictable. Some can afford to have the brand new tech right out of the gate and pluck down a grand on the risk it may never come to fruition, others cannot and should not do that until it is proven.