(Aob) bacteria that is^
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this seems to be the thing that some people here missing - and perhaps I'm missing the point as well - but - I was thinking the point of your article was to show how increasing levels of Nitrite can suggest a problem. As compared to the issue that nitrite itself is 'definitely' toxic. On the other hand, no one has done studies on low-level nitrite levels vis a vis longer-term toxicity. I don't get the discussion or argument here frankly. The question I would like to know is - 'does nitrite testing help manage an aquarium'. Not does 2 ppm Nitrite kill something or not.I would love that people use the phrase not acute toxic when they refer to results from LC-50 tests. These tests say nothing about sublethal damage, stress response or death during long exposure. We do not know anything about this. And we do not know anything about other organisms response to nitrite. I maybe know that this or this organism manage - let us say - 1 ppm NO2 but during the same time that or that organism was not so successful. Was this because of the nitrite level or something else - we can´t know that
We are also talking about system that´s not fully cycled and there many starts with high concentrations of ammonia - if you start with 5 ppm NH4 (as I have seen in threads) - it means 3,9 ppm NH4 -N and fully converted to NO2 -> 3,9 NO2-N = 3,28*3,9 NO2 -> 12.8 ppm if the second step is stalled.) You read 0 ammonia and in order to verify the first step - new adding of ammonia - and nitrite can rise higher and higher if second step is stalled
I was among these that for 15 - 20 years ago was fighting for the understanding that nitrite was not as acute toxic for saltwater fish as it was for freshwater fish. We used small amounts of chloride in our freshwater aquariums if we get high nitrite levels. However - too high levels of nitrite (above 0.05 ppm IMO) indicate disturbance in the nitrification cycle and for me - a well working nitrification cycle is important for the whole system.
But this has lead to people start to think that the nitrification cycle is over when the first step has started - NH3/NH4 -> NO2. It has also lead to that many people says - do not measure nitrite. It has also lead to the believing that in a fully cycled tank - there is no nitrite. IMO - nitrite measurements is one of the best tools you have in order to understand the status of your aquarium. The NO2 -> NO3 is one of the most sensitive bacterial transformations we have in saltwater - it is very oxygen dependent, it is sensitive for antibacterial chemicals, it sensitive to excessive growth of heterotrophic bacteria and so on. With a good knowledge of your normal nitrite concentrations you can use these test as an early warning tool if the system goes south in some cases. IMO - Nitrite test are also among those tests that work good and normally rather accurate - even hobby tests.
I use a system to start my aquariums there I never get any nitrite spikes at all - I use fish as ammonia producer and amount of feed as regulating factor. I do not know if it is therefore I do not get any ugly phases or other problems when i start the aquariums. I would not panic (for my fish) if I read 1 or 2 ppm nitrite in my aquarium - instead working steady to get the nitrification process to work - but if I read that in a fishless system - I would never put a fish in that tank before I fixed the nitrification process fully out.
If you try to manage a low nitrate system - knowledge about your nitrite levels is very important because in most test - nitrite interfere with the nitrate readings.
Sincerely Lasse
its not 'his thread' - its a discussion board. If he doesn't want it discussed - by people that agree (or disagree with him) - he shouldn't post it. If I post a thread its not 'mine' its public.what you did to Taricha's work thread in the chemistry forum I find concerning. I can't understand why you'd still post procedural info opposite to his, in his own study thread.
Hmmmm.I wouldn't say it is not toxic. Even if acute or lethal it is still toxic. Found a few places for example that listed 96 hr, and 24 hr Lc50's. Which 50% of test subjects died within that time frame. Most are similar from 5 to upwards of 3000mg/L where 50% are dead in that time. That is marine fish. The safer ranges from less than .5mg/L to 15 mg/L for inverts and less than 5mg/L to 50mg/L fish in one article. Safer though still toxic. I have seen on here some that let it go to over 10mg/L. Saying one would never get to toxic levels is just false. Temperature matters cold water species are much more sensitive. To add when the temperature rises the toxicity increases to nearly double in most at usual aquarium temperatures because the fish need to take in more oxygen. It is also another unknown in common kept fish whether some fish take more nitrite via their stomach than through gills. Which would negate the effects chloride has on making nitrite absorption rates into body safer. Not to mention other variables or chemical reactions that increase toxicity as well as side effects caused even if they did not die. Some of the places I found only listed a few commonly kept fish and inverts. None were very comprehensive lists. Realistically would one want to risk a several hundred dollar fish to a possible 50% chance of survival right out of the gate without solid data? Even risk a 15% chance on top of all the other probabilities? Whether it be interfering with biological functions, increased susceptibility to disease/parasites or outright death. I would be a lot more convinced if anyone can find me Lc2's (2%) or lowest observed adverse effect levels/concentration. I would like the greatest chance of survival, long life, and good health for my pets. Until then I will personally test and control nitrite when cycling new or dealing with die off cycles.
Sort of another thing I'm batting at. How do we know that a life time of even intermittent exposures does not cause harm long term, shorter life, disease outbreaks etc.. Only stating it should be tested and adjusted/kept in check respectfully. The nitrite is "non-toxic" community saying based on a limited list of food use fisheries species is not us reef keepers as a whole. Where a few of things we do keep even though studies are limited, can be shown to be effected. What about a comprehensive list of fish, corals, inverts, sponges, or anything so many people keep. No such list exists. People say they care about their pets but ignore possibility, and in some cases near certainty. Why not test occasionally. It's so easy and takes no time. To your last question I believe my answer would be yes it helps. Some reasons we may know why, and some not.this seems to be the thing that some people here missing - and perhaps I'm missing the point as well - but - I was thinking the point of your article was to show how increasing levels of Nitrite can suggest a problem. As compared to the issue that nitrite itself is 'definitely' toxic. On the other hand, no one has done studies on low-level nitrite levels vis a vis longer-term toxicity. I don't get the discussion or argument here frankly. The question I would like to know is - 'does nitrite testing help manage an aquarium'. Not does 2 ppm Nitrite kill something or not.
The one response about the whole testing thing is - lets say you do a nitrite one week and its 0 - and the next its .5. Would you do something different - if everything in the tank looks good? One thing I think reefers do incorrectly - is too much testing. Because - a certain percent of tests by definition will be 'abnormal' - and then they do something about those results. I tend to test when I see a problem - and in the meantime - I do everything I can do to avoid a problem. I.e. - I would never do an ICP test. I test Nitrate and PO4 perhaps ever 3-4 months. Alkalinity once a month Ca at the same time.Sort of another thing I'm batting at. How do we know that a life time of even intermittent exposures does not cause harm long term, shorter life, disease outbreaks etc.. Only stating it should be tested and adjusted/kept in check respectfully. The nitrite is "non-toxic" community saying based on a limited list of food use fisheries species is not us reef keepers as a whole. Where a few of things we do keep even though studies are limited, can be shown to be effected. What about a comprehensive list of fish, corals, inverts, sponges, or anything so many people keep. No such list exists. People say they care about their pets but ignore possibility, and in some cases near certainty. Why not test occasionally. It's so easy and takes no time. To your last question I believe my answer would be yes it helps. Some reasons we may know why, and some not.