NH3 and NH4, cycling a new 90 gallon

[Gregg @ ADP]

my sprinkler system has an interface and reliability that is multiple times better than any reef stuff. Many of the techies have long since dropped most of the tech because of this.

Spot on.

The more I do this, the more I try to simplify everything. Why do I even need all that controllability anyway? If I set a system up using a half-dozen brain cells or more, the coral is going to grow with or without the tech.

My real passion is fly fishing. I’ve been doing it for over 40 years. When I was younger, I had every new gadget that came out. I was a walking fly shop. Now I grab rod, reel, leader/tippet, floatant, flies, and maybe waders if it’s not warm.

I’ll pull up and see guys who are clearly newer to the sport at their cars gearing up. I get out, grab my stuff, and hit the river. By the time they finally get their feet wet, I’ve already landed 3 fish.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

I can continue to wait for NH4 to drop, without any risk that my bacteria colony is going to starve and die back, ruining or prolonging my cycle.

They’re bacteria, man. Once they’re in there, short of you bleaching the tank, they aren’t going anywhere. If the bacterial population is based on x amount of NH3 or NO2, and you double that amount available, you’ll probably have enough bacteria to handle the new concentration by the time you wake up in the morning.

 

[brandon429]

since you have .03 as your running baseline, add some liquid ammonia and show that rise in a snippet from the live digital chart

then we see if it goes back to this approx level overnite, which I bet it will. let's do some seneye proofing you have a rare setup to verify some things during the cycle. we don't need the bottom end to be precise, those slides probably weren't 48 hrs soaked either/prepped the right way but it's the changes the graphs show we can use to make some proof inspections.

I predict it will move the ammonia back overnite. hit it with a zip of ammonia to prove the sensors are working, and let's see what the rebound rates are.

since nobody on this entire site has ever had a real true stuck cycle in an actual reef tank, I'm voting your cycle is fine. it's rare we get to see seneye proofing on early cycles, don't let us down, make some use of that machine $

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

Spot on.

The more I do this, the more I try to simplify everything. Why do I even need all that controllability anyway? If I set a system up using a half-dozen brain cells or more, the coral is going to grow with or without the tech.

Here's a few examples:

Redundancy & safety - My heaters have their own temp control, and that's backed up by the Hydros outlet bar and temp probe. If the heater controller fails in such a way it tries to overheat the tank, the controller catches it and not only shuts down the heater outlet, but it notifies me by mobile push message and email. If my PH or salinity gets out of acceptable range, due to kalk overdose or stuck ATO etc. it can shut that down as well and also notify me. I can go on week long trips to Moab and still have a pretty good chance of catching and fixing problems, or calling my father in law to go to my house and fix problems, because I know about the problems because my tech monitors and alerts me.

Convenience and maximizing growth - For sure plenty of people have successful tanks using lower tech methods. But as our understanding of coral and livestock needs and optimal growth conditions improves, tech like aquarium controllers can maximize conditions for maximum health and growth. It's just fine to have parameters in a 'close enough' state that things are healthy. But hitting the perfect parameters can as much as double coral growth. Monitoring parameters constantly through tech also helps to catch any problems when they are still small, before they grow to potential tank crashing proportions.

Fun factor - This one may be just me, but I personally like using tech to achieve my goals. I like being able to control almost all aspects of my system remotely from an app or web interface. I like being able to look at charts over time for important parameters.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

They’re bacteria, man. Once they’re in there, short of you bleaching the tank, they aren’t going anywhere. If the bacterial population is based on x amount of NH3 or NO2, and you double that amount available, you’ll probably have enough bacteria to handle the new concentration by the time you wake up in the morning.

While I don't doubt that is true for an established tank, it's demonstrably not true for a tank during the initial cycle. Otherwise, you dump in your Dr Tims or Microbacter and then load up the fish on day one. By that logic, since I dosed the tank to 2 ppm initially, I could add enough livestock right now to hit 4 PPM and they'd be just fine by the morning. And then the next day I can add 8 PPM worth of livestock. And so on.

It clearly takes some amount of time to initially establish that biological ammonia filter. And while I've understood the basics of the nitrogen cycle for years, the differences in NH3 and NH4 were relatively new to me, and I wanted to make sure I fully understood, specifically as it relates to a cycling tank.

 

[brandon429]

you have a way to test some core science for sure.

the enduring question: can anyone find a seneye that doesn't show a cycle at day ten ready and able for a common starting bioload

I have yet to see a single one, out of thousands of cycles observed/anyone can search them too/ the pattern is their fish are always alive and fine

 

[brandon429]

lots of people dose fish on day one, thousands in fact, here's one:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

that's like eight fish, a $400 anemone and some cuc on day one in a dry start tank, plus all searchable examples for skip cycle dry starts show the same outcome (fish doing fine and well) so it means that same outcome above is expected for any reefer, it's literally hard to find instances in which bottle bac didn't carry an initial bioload (and even harder to find seneye instances of a cycle stall)


bottle bac doesn't have trouble carrying an initial bioload on day one.

hey can you upload your day 1 logs from the seneye vs what it looks like today, so we can see trending in nh3 bottom end range

it wasn't your readings that clued me in to your cycle, it's your time-in-setup compared to the ammonia control date on a common cycling chart (~day ten)

 

[brandon429]

specifically it would be most interesting to see when your nh3 control wasn't in place, on the logs

the goal is to find a calibrated seneye measurement about cycle behavior that goes against all searchable cycling chart dates for ammonia control (no later than day ten and never out of control afterwards given normal running conditions) and goes against all searchable returns for what happens when people input fish and bottle bac on day one (things go fine because the bioload doesn't exceed bottled viability)

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

since you have .03 as your running baseline, add some liquid ammonia and show that rise in a snippet from the live digital chart

then we see if it goes back to this approx level overnite, which I bet it will. let's do some seneye proofing you have a rare setup to verify some things during the cycle. we don't need the bottom end to be precise, those slides probably weren't 48 hrs soaked either/prepped the right way but it's the changes the graphs show we can use to make some proof inspections.

I predict it will move the ammonia back overnite. hit it with a zip of ammonia to prove the sensors are working, and let's see what the rebound rates are.

since nobody on this entire site has ever had a real true stuck cycle in an actual reef tank, I'm voting your cycle is fine. it's rare we get to see seneye proofing on early cycles, don't let us down, make some use of that machine $

While I would love to see the results of an experiment like this, I'm not sure I am willing to run the experiment on my only tank. My whole reason for posting this, and for buying the seneye, was to try and make sure I start this tank under absolutely optimal conditions. I don't like the idea of dumping in more liquid ammonia, especially when Brightwell cautions against this in their Microbacter XML instructions.

It would probably be fine. Like you say, the NH3 added would probably be consumed very quickly. But this is my living room display tank, my only tank, it's a significant investment already and I don't even have livestock yet. So, my most sincere apologies, but I'm not gonna turn this tank into an experiment.

I am also quite satisfied to the accuracy and functionality of the seneye. I did not soak the slide for 48 hrs, just cause I wasn't aware I was supposed to until it was already installed. But if I disregard the first 24 hrs of data, it's been rock steady and solid and all parameters that i can double check, like temp and PH, are spot on. I don't have another way to measure just NH3, but I've read up on the method they are using and, short of something like a bad batch of slides that are just wholly defective, I'm satisfied with it.

 

[jda]

Here's a few examples:

Redundancy & safety - My heaters have their own temp control, and that's backed up by the Hydros outlet bar and temp probe. If the heater controller fails in such a way it tries to overheat the tank, the controller catches it and not only shuts down the heater outlet, but it notifies me by mobile push message and email. If my PH or salinity gets out of acceptable range, due to kalk overdose or stuck ATO etc. it can shut that down as well and also notify me. I can go on week long trips to Moab and still have a pretty good chance of catching and fixing problems, or calling my father in law to go to my house and fix problems, because I know about the problems because my tech monitors and alerts me.

Convenience and maximizing growth - For sure plenty of people have successful tanks using lower tech methods. But as our understanding of coral and livestock needs and optimal growth conditions improves, tech like aquarium controllers can maximize conditions for maximum health and growth. It's just fine to have parameters in a 'close enough' state that things are healthy. But hitting the perfect parameters can as much as double coral growth. Monitoring parameters constantly through tech also helps to catch any problems when they are still small, before they grow to potential tank crashing proportions.

Fun factor - This one may be just me, but I personally like using tech to achieve my goals. I like being able to control almost all aspects of my system remotely from an app or web interface. I like being able to look at charts over time for important parameters.

Please just monitor. Do not trust any reef level equipment to make decisions about when to add this or that... look at the dumps of carbonate, calcium, kalk, etc. when people tried to rely on a probe or automated test that messed up. Ask any of the folks who ran as fast as they could away from their Tridents and those type of deals.

There are systems that are VERY reliable that are just mechanical. Calcium Reactor (with good components), for example. These are more reliable and less prone to fail and need to probes or computers. The gas vs liquid state of co2 is very reliable.

Most other concerns can be mitigated by smart planning and actually good equipment. No need to monitor good heaters on a Ranco, for example - nobody has ever heard of a Ranco failing on that I have ever seen. It is OK if a return pump goes out while you are in Moab if you have a heater in the tank and flow pumps - everything will live. ...stuff like that.

Tech might be fun, but it sucks that the most reliable stuff is not encapsulated in any tech. There is a causality here... Good luck.

 

[brandon429]

I don't value them whatsoever for ph and par

But for cycling they're the best in reefing. Adding a zip of ammonia isn't an experiment, it's the endless job of a cycle to eat it right up fast.

Plus you'd be able to show a reading in 24 hours off both digital and non digital kits, which helps us get to the bottom of false cycle stalling posts. It's really just making use of what u already have in place to show neat ability of cycling

 

[brandon429]

I normally never, ever ask anyone to reverify a cycle because whatever makes red sea ammonia kits over read will kick into play and lead everyone off course

But you have that rare monitor where we already know your baseline... it can show the system eating up any test ammonia in 15 mins is the bet, it won't even take overnite. Overnite/ if ever/ is how long non seneye test kits take to register an ammonia load test

*if you had api ammonia to run along with this seneye that would be amazing and rare comparative data

 

[brandon429]

Since we don't reference seneyes for ph reliability and par, and since ammonia control is a time- charted characteristic of reef tanks not requiring actual ammonia monitoring, pretty much the only use for your seneye is for cycling experiments now. They don't all have to be in the display, you could set up bucket cycle experiments to add to cycling science knowledge

Your ammonia can't be out of control in the display now/ in the future from any secretive event. If you have system flow and can account for your fish, ammonia will remain controlled

Nh3 doesn't need to be monitored, but those devices sure are handy for testing cycling science claims

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

Here's a few examples:

Redundancy & safety - My heaters have their own temp control, and that's backed up by the Hydros outlet bar and temp probe. If the heater controller fails in such a way it tries to overheat the tank, the controller catches it and not only shuts down the heater outlet, but it notifies me by mobile push message and email. If my PH or salinity gets out of acceptable range, due to kalk overdose or stuck ATO etc. it can shut that down as well and also notify me. I can go on week long trips to Moab and still have a pretty good chance of catching and fixing problems, or calling my father in law to go to my house and fix problems, because I know about the problems because my tech monitors and alerts me.

Convenience and maximizing growth - For sure plenty of people have successful tanks using lower tech methods. But as our understanding of coral and livestock needs and optimal growth conditions improves, tech like aquarium controllers can maximize conditions for maximum health and growth. It's just fine to have parameters in a 'close enough' state that things are healthy. But hitting the perfect parameters can as much as double coral growth. Monitoring parameters constantly through tech also helps to catch any problems when they are still small, before they grow to potential tank crashing proportions.

Fun factor - This one may be just me, but I personally like using tech to achieve my goals. I like being able to control almost all aspects of my system remotely from an app or web interface. I like being able to look at charts over time for important parameters.

For sure. I get it. I have Apex Controllers on every tank I set up. Most of the info I get from them is pretty useless. The most useful information I ever get is if a return pump shuts down…which almost never happens.

Any movement in parameters is almost never enough to get my attention. It can be interesting knowledge, but it’s also nothing I couldn’t figure pretty much just from looking at a tank.

But, your reefing is your reefing, and you should do it the way you want to. I’ve learned over the years not to rely on it, but that’s just my experience. You should do it the way you want to. On my own tank, I have no controllers or other tech. Hell, I don’t even have what would typically qualify as filtration. But a lot of that is because I have already used pretty much everything out there, and don’t feel I need any of it at this point.

 

[Gregg @ ADP]

While I don't doubt that is true for an established tank, it's demonstrably not true for a tank during the initial cycle. Otherwise, you dump in your Dr Tims or Microbacter and then load up the fish on day one. By that logic, since I dosed the tank to 2 ppm initially, I could add enough livestock right now to hit 4 PPM and they'd be just fine by the morning. And then the next day I can add 8 PPM worth of livestock. And so on.

It clearly takes some amount of time to initially establish that biological ammonia filter. And while I've understood the basics of the nitrogen cycle for years, the differences in NH3 and NH4 were relatively new to me, and I wanted to make sure I fully understood, specifically as it relates to a cycling tank.

I don’t think that’s really the case. It’s just not how bacteria work.

Might it take a few days for bottled bac to settle in and begin reproducing? Maybe. But if you dump a bunch of nitrifying bacteria into a system, you are 90% of the way toward having a cycling system. That 10% is sorting out and responding and calibrating to the environment and limiting factors.

When I was growing up, my step-mom was a microbiologist. I remember when I was first getting into aquatic ecology, and was expressing some concerns about something or other with a bacterial population. She just sort grinned and shook her head and said ‘Don’t worry….they’re bacteria.’

I have witnessed aquarium system crashes of every imaginable type over 30+ years, but I can’t think of a single time any of it could be attributed to some sort of failure of the nitrifiers. Once they’re in there, you’re good to go.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

lots of people dose fish on day one, thousands in fact, here's one:

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

that's like eight fish, a $400 anemone and some cuc on day one in a dry start tank, plus all searchable examples for skip cycle dry starts show the same outcome (fish doing fine and well) so it means that same outcome above is expected for any reefer, it's literally hard to find instances in which bottle bac didn't carry an initial bioload (and even harder to find seneye instances of a cycle stall)


bottle bac doesn't have trouble carrying an initial bioload on day one.

hey can you upload your day 1 logs from the seneye vs what it looks like today, so we can see trending in nh3 bottom end range

it wasn't your readings that clued me in to your cycle, it's your time-in-setup compared to the ammonia control date on a common cycling chart (~day ten)

Yeah so this is contradictory to much of the other advice I've received on this very post, from Randy and others.

When researching Microbacter, I also found tons of examples of success with bacteria in a bottle, maybe not from literally day one, but around day 7-10 with dr tims and microbacter. Which is kinda why I made this post, because I want to learn, and hear from other's experience, if these types of products work as they claim or if I should stick with the more traditional methods. Microbacter instructions say I should be adding fish now.


I've also had problems myself with one of my earliest tanks years ago, using IIRC API quick start - I added a pair of chromis and they both died 2 days later. Not positive it was due to ammonia, but that was my assumption at the time.

So, that's really the main reason for this post to begin with. It seems to me that Dr Tims and Microbacter and maybe other products have advanced a lot in the last couple years to the point that they are very effective.

I've been advised that no way should I add any livestock while I have measurable amounts of NH3 AND NH4, and contrasting with that I have the instructions on the microbacter and also some advise saying I'm already in good shape and I'm free to safely add livestock.

 

[brandon429]

100% agreed: old cycling science and new cycling science are mutually-exclusive ventures.

I search hard, wide and far to find any noncompliant cycles in a seneye and it's just plainly fascinating there aren't any so far.

it's a testament to what water bacteria do in water they're adapted to

*agreed fully / mb7 and brightwell stuff are the last cycling bacteria I like to use in my cycling threads

but then again, they've passed every known measure here to date in your tank I might have to change up that tilt

if you might input just one bump of ammonia, enough to cause a rise and then see where it lands in 15 mins and report that, it would be a treasure trove of cycling data to confirm. can you do that quick n easy test

*even though that biospira thread is just one of thousands, it represents literally just about anything you can find in searching for reef tank cycle attempts. they don't fail, much.

cycles fail so little I've never seen a single seneye owner report bioload noncarry, and they work out so commonly that any searched example of a day 1 setup is living animals unless we dig very, very hard for posts we've never actually encountered before the search.

it's pretty much a given that where water + inoculation occurs, bacteria have set up and maintained shop by day ten. This is why all cycling charts that came from books (and not people's api interpretation) all have the same compliance / drop date for ammonia.

*in the biospira thread above, that bacteria was working right when added in suspension, before transition time to surfaces (by day ten) which is why all his bioload carried over just fine. those fish were being fed quite well too from the start; that's a real testament to the power of bottle bac right out of the gate.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

specifically it would be most interesting to see when your nh3 control wasn't in place, on the logs

the goal is to find a calibrated seneye measurement about cycle behavior that goes against all searchable cycling chart dates for ammonia control (no later than day ten and never out of control afterwards given normal running conditions) and goes against all searchable returns for what happens when people input fish and bottle bac on day one (things go fine because the bioload doesn't exceed bottled viability)

I was not aware that I am supposed to soak the slide for 48 hours in order to get accurate measurements. I just put mine straight into the tank. I added it 3 days after adding the Microbacter. Looking at the charts, the earliest recording I have shows 0.038 PPM, and it's slowly trended downward until today where it's sitting at 0.02.

Apologies for the photos, if Seneye allows me to export to Excel I haven't figured out how yet.

 

[brandon429]

thats really good. though the bottom line might could benefit from trim adjustment etc there isn't a need to get on it right now in my opinion bc the system is new. still very useful data though, your steady states are in the low hundredths ppm given all setup and system variables and it's the change away from that where the machine will shine compared to other means of measure (it'll show changes faster, and rebounds back to X setpoint much faster than nondigital systems I predict)

if you can add a zip of ammonia to the tank, a pretty decent one and then test with a non digital kit about 1 min after adding the dose + that seneye, then we track reading differences over a few hours time from the two kits, that would be a neat way to use your existing gear to add valuable data to cycling science.

 

[SaltyShrimpy]

Since we don't reference seneyes for ph reliability and par, and since ammonia control is a time- charted characteristic of reef tanks not requiring actual ammonia monitoring, pretty much the only use for your seneye is for cycling experiments now. They don't all have to be in the display, you could set up bucket cycle experiments to add to cycling science knowledge

Your ammonia can't be out of control in the display now/ in the future from any secretive event. If you have system flow and can account for your fish, ammonia will remain controlled

Nh3 doesn't need to be monitored, but those devices sure are handy for testing cycling science claims

Ok, sure, you've convinced me. I'll dose around 1 PPM ammonia today and monitor it with the seneye.

After looking at a few comparisons with the seneye vs more industrial PAR meters, the results are encouraging. There are a LOT of posts and videos saying the seneye is way off, but digging further we discover there are some important caveats to using it properly - the biggest one being to make sure it's parallel to the surface of the water. It's evidently quite sensitive to angles, and being off by a little bit can influence the reading a lot. So, 3d printing a holder and removing most of the room for error should help.

PH and temp on the Seneye are tracking just fine with observed measurements from multiple other sources. My slide is brand new, maybe it will drift when the slide is 3 weeks old.