Nitrates...

[shananigans]

I know this is a topic that has been hammered to death on most forums but I'm puzzled. I have a 55 gallon with a 30 gallon sump/fuge with chaeto and rubble. Skimmer (some generic one but works great), 2 250 watt MH, 100+ lbs of liverock, clean up crew, 2 clowns, cleaner shrimp, banded shrimp, brittle star and a few frags.

The tank was upgraded about a month ago from a 45. We used almost all new RO/DI water for the upgrade and all top offs are RO/DI. Ph, nitrite, ammonia were all perfect but the nitrates were at about 40 a few days after the upgrade. Did 2 25% water changes since then and last night my nitrates were at 80! I feed a very small pinch of flake food daily and occassionaly some frozen brine. Food is always gone within 30 seconds to a minute. Am I missing something? :squigglemouth:

 

[Fishcrazy06]

Did you use the same Live Rock? There filter pads anywhere on the system? Have you always used RO/DI in the system?

Eric

 

[jhsu703]

is your rocks fuller cured?

 

[shananigans]

I used some rocks from the old system and also another 60 lbs from a lady who tore down her system. She is experienced and had an established tank. All rock was from cycled tanks. When I first started the 45 about 2 years ago I didn't have RO/DO water. But once I got my RO/DI I did water changes on the 45 and when I upgraded I used practically all new water. No filter pads anywhere. Even if some of the water from the 45 caused a nitrate issue, how could the nitrates double after 2 water changes on the 55? It just doesn't make sense, at least to me!

 

[FateX8]

did you do your tests right after the water change? did you use the same sand fromt he 45? if you did use the same sand without rinsing it then thats your cause

 

[seafansar]

My old 54 bowfront always had nitrate problems. Usually stayed around 50+. Didn't seem to matter that I did water changes. I didn't have a skimmer on it (should have, but couldn't fit one). I did have a fuge on it. I finally gave up trying to lower the nitrates, and my fish and corals didn't really seem to mind. I even had some SPS in it, like a red planet that had amazing colors and grew really quickly.

I kind of thought it was my sand sifting goby's fault. I was trying for the whole deep sand bed thing, but he kind of blew that idea. Do you have a sand sifter in your tank? And how much livestock is in the tank?

 

[Yellowtang]

The rock you got from that lady could have had nitrates off the scale and now its leaching into your water.

Your test kit could be bad, and you could have someone else test your water once.

Test your RO/DI water and make sure it reads zero.

JR,

 

[AlexStinson]

+1, defenatly get you water tested elsewhere, especially if you are using low-end kits such as API

 

[beaslbob]

I know this is a topic that has been hammered to death on most forums but I'm puzzled. I have a 55 gallon with a 30 gallon sump/fuge with chaeto and rubble. Skimmer (some generic one but works great), 2 250 watt MH, 100+ lbs of liverock, clean up crew, 2 clowns, cleaner shrimp, banded shrimp, brittle star and a few frags.

The tank was upgraded about a month ago from a 45. We used almost all new RO/DI water for the upgrade and all top offs are RO/DI. Ph, nitrite, ammonia were all perfect but the nitrates were at about 40 a few days after the upgrade. Did 2 25% water changes since then and last night my nitrates were at 80! I feed a very small pinch of flake food daily and occassionaly some frozen brine. Food is always gone within 30 seconds to a minute. Am I missing something? :squigglemouth:

no.

In a tank that is fully balanced out with plant life (macro algaes, corraline, and what have you), what happens when ammonia bumps up the macros consume that ammonia directly and need less nitrAtes. So the only spike you get is nitrates. Then after a few weeks when things return to normal or the aerobic bacteria start consuming the ammonia, the nitrates drop down. (the macros are then getting their nitrogen from nitrAtes instead of ammonia).

So an immediate spike in nitrates when upgrading a tank with macro algaes is actually a good sign. It is just the plant life (macros) doing their job and preventing dangerous ammonia and nitrIte spikes.

my .02

 

[Old School Reefer]

A couple of thoughts here. My DT has nitrates off the charts. Filter pad huh? That makes me wonder. I do have a filter pad in the sump that I'm not that diligent at changing. :angel: My frag tank NO2 runs at around 10 which doesn't worry me at all. No filter pads of any kind in the frag tank.

Now having NO2 readings off the charts in the DT you would think that corals and other inverts may suffer but it's just the opposite. Corals are doing awesome. Growth is great and it's there's tons of SPS. Inverts and fish are happy as can be. oh:

Go figure. I don't get it. YMMV I guess.

I recently bought an API CA kit because it was dirt cheap in comparison and it reads the same as my Elos kit. I may try a couple of other API kits but I'll keep the Elos kits on hand also just in case I start seeing weirdness in the readings. It's always a good idea to have something to compare it to.
__________________________________________________

 

[AlexStinson]

I never knew macros and corraline could aborb ammonia, i thought it was just the bacteria... I will have to research this strange happening

 

[Yellowtang]

I never knew macros and corraline could aborb ammonia, i thought it was just the bacteria... I will have to research this strange happening

Have a look here..
http://drs.nio.org/drs/bitstream/2264/492/1/J_Exp_Mar_Biol_Ecol_339_236.pdf

JR,

 

[shananigans]

Thanks for all the info! I just borrowed a test kit from a friend and I'm going to compare it. I do have a pretty cheap one! I bought sand from someone off reef central and ditched the sand from the 45 gallon. I did not rinse it, it stayed in a bin for about 2 weeks waiting for the upgrade. I didn't test the water the sand was in during that time...but there's still the question of how the nitrates doubled after 2 WC in the new 55....I didn't change a thing! I guess I will know more after testing with a higher end kit. I am hoping it will level out, that would be great! I'm just nervous putting any expensive new things in there because I lost an emerald crab and I suspect it was from the nitrates but I don't know for sure.

I waited a while after the WC to test. I don't have a thick sand bed and do not have a sand sifter. I have plenty of snails and crabs though. I just have 2 clowns, 2 shrimp, a pencili urchin, a brittle and clean up crew. I have not tested my RO/DI, that's a good idea, hadn't thought of that! Will def. do that. My mushrooms and few frags I have seem to be happy as can be (from what I know) and other inhabitants as well... I just don't like dead surprises!!!

 

[AlexStinson]

thanks yellowtang, I like reading peer-reviewed articles... being in the science community I appreciate research based information.

 

[beaslbob]

Just wanted to also thank yellow tang for the article. Skimming the first paragraph, I found it surprising that macros consumed ammoina during the night at 80% of the day rate.

I may ramble here so please bear with me.

I have started Fw tank with no filters, no circulation, tap water but the tank stocked full of fast growing plants such as anacharis. After years of operation that surprises the filtered/water change operators So because of thier questions, I finally actually measured parameters. What I found was there was a small (.25ppm) ammonia jump the first day setup and the first day after adding fish a week later. Followed by a small .5ppm or so nitrIte bump up the next day. Both spikes returned to 0 the day after the spike.

What is surprising also is that I got an almost immediate (1 day or so) bump up in nitrates. Rising to 20ppm of so and dropping to 0 after 2-3 weeks of operation.

my 7 year old 10g has descendents from the original cycle guppy trio and I have not cleaned the glass in over 2 years. (And you can still see the fish and there is no noticiable algae on the glass.)

Also surprising was that even with a acid (peat moss) substrate, pH rose to 8.4-8.8 with the api high range test kit. And has stayed at the level for years. Neon tetras, hatchetfish, and others have thrived in the environment.

On the salt/marine side I have seen daytime pH fo 7.5 or so rise to 8.2 then to 8.4-8.8 24 hours after adding macro algaes. And when I basically doubled the fish load, no ammonia/nitrIte spikes but an immediate bump up in nitrates to 20ppm that lasted for three weeks.

Something to think about (if you want to get you head wrapped around it) is the effectiveness of water changes. If you have a daily increase or decrease in anything and say change 10% or the water every 10 days, where does the tank wind up when the concentration of that thing is the same water change to water change?

In order for that to happen, The amount of change between the water changes must be removed by the water change. With a 10% water change, The parameter will build up to 10 times the change between water change. then down to 9 times, and back up to 10 times just before the nest water change.

So assume a 1 ppm nitrate not being consumed be the tank each day. 10 days is 10ppm. The tank will be 100ppm then down to 90ppm and back up to 100ppm the next day.

Now to get real nerdy assume the % water change is "tied" the days between water changes. 1% every day, 5% every 5 days, 10% every 10 days, 20% every 20 days, etc.

In all those water change schedules the nitrates before the water change will be 100ppm. So all the new tanks ran for a few months experiencing those levels of nitrates are not because of the water changes but because the tank itself is not consuming the nitrates.

My wife's 29g has ran for a few years now with soft corals, a couple of clown fish with no water changes. Nitrates and phosphates are undetectable with the api nitrates test kit and the salifert low reading phosphate. The macros in the fuge and algae in the display consume those.

I do have to dose calcium, alk, mag though but then even with water changes, I would have to dose those anyway. Just probably not as much.


So with that rant, too me we do over emphasize the bacteria actions in our closed environments. When we should actually be emphasizing the action of the plant life like corraline and other algaes. In fact the emphasize should be the most important thing is to get that algae established and then do the rest.

But that's just me

And my .02

 

[Yellowtang]

Your welcome

JR,

 

[Alpha Aquaculture]

I agree macroalgaes and such have great benefits in aquariums. I feed my corals a ton and do not have nitrate issues. I have an ats and macros. I also have another small tank with a myriad of macros and seldom do water changes in that one but its super healthy.

At the same time imo water changes are important not just for diluting the water of negative substances like nitrates and adding other positive elements that the corals use but... to help restore the balance of elements found in natural seawater.

Thats interesting stuff everyone, thanks!

 

[Fragged_it]

I use a sulphur denitrator to maintain untestable nitrates.
It's the best way to go if there is no room for a refugium.

 

[FishyFarr]

hiatt filtration

super carbon and right now bacteria are the way to go.
I have a 55 gallon with 65 lbs live rock
4 royal grammas 2 clarkii clowns an anemone, hermits and an emerald crab, cleaner shrimp and pepp shrimp.

My nitrates don't even spike when I add a new fish.
I am finding more and more that the benefits of this filtration outweigh having carbon in my sump. (5 lbs)

anyways its awesome.