Non-Reef LED lighting

[DCJ]

Hi forum

I'm slinking in with a quick Q for people who's heads DON'T hurt when they talk about aquarium lighting, ie, not me.

I want to set up a little macroalgae pico bowl on a bookshelf shelf on my landing - mostly green macroalgae with some pulsing xenia, maaaybe some kenya trees or something, possibly a little mangrove. The main focus would be the green macroalgae and the xenia.

I have some battery powered LEDS that would fit the space, are easy to install, and at least visually offer really bright light.

The lights are 10-180 lumens and 3000/4500/6500K, depending on what you set them at, so I'd go with the highest intensity 180 lumens, 6500K. Just whites, I won't be using blues on this bowl.

Can anyone tell me if they'd think the macroalgae and xenia could be supported by this light? It'd be no more than 4" from the surface, or closer, depending on the height of the bowl I go with. The space I have is 13" top to bottom, so the bowl isn't deep at all.

I'm sorry that's not a lot of information.

Thank you for your help!

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Any idea what PAR your lights would put out? Lumens really just tell us how bright they appear to human eyes, while PAR tells you how much energy the light is putting out for photosynthesis.

Do you happen to have a graph showing the light spectrum (wavelengths) of your lights?

 

[piranhaman00]

Yes no problem

 

[DCJ]

@ISpeakForTheSeas Not an iota I'm afraid. I know that makes things really difficult, I'm sorry. I don't have a PAR meter either, and there's nowhere I could even rent one from.

I'm not even sure where the box for the lights is, or if it even had any more info other than that. They're supposed to be used to light up dark areas like a corridor or garage in short bursts, but they can be set for longer, and I have two so I can switch them out and charge one, switch it back, etc

I'm really sorry, I know it's hard to make a decision with restricted info. I'd take just a rough guess, if one can even be made. Honestly, I don't understand enough about lights to know if making a guess is even possible with the info I have.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, sorry the info isn't very good


@piranhaman00 have you had experience with that kind of light on that kind of pico bowl? Thank you for taking the time to respond!

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Honestly, I don't understand enough about lights to know if making a guess is even possible with the info I have.

Not a lot of lights list as much info as they should, so I don't blame you at all for not having the info. I would say that the only way to know for sure with the info you have would be by trying it and seeing how it goes.

 

[Diastro]

I will say yes. Green Macroalgae and pulsing xenia are very simple. I have my tank on all white led flood lights right now. Caulerpas will grow with literally any light lol.

 

[jda]

Output aside, those spectrum will grow algae and corals better than the heavy-blues that people like to run. You are all set.

You might want to think about getting a DC adapter instead of batteries.

 

[oreo54]

Hi forum

I'm slinking in with a quick Q for people who's heads DON'T hurt when they talk about aquarium lighting, ie, not me.

I want to set up a little macroalgae pico bowl on a bookshelf shelf on my landing - mostly green macroalgae with some pulsing xenia, maaaybe some kenya trees or something, possibly a little mangrove. The main focus would be the green macroalgae and the xenia.

I have some battery powered LEDS that would fit the space, are easy to install, and at least visually offer really bright light.

The lights are 10-180 lumens and 3000/4500/6500K, depending on what you set them at, so I'd go with the highest intensity 180 lumens, 6500K. Just whites, I won't be using blues on this bowl.

Can anyone tell me if they'd think the macroalgae and xenia could be supported by this light? It'd be no more than 4" from the surface, or closer, depending on the height of the bowl I go with. The space I have is 13" top to bottom, so the bowl isn't deep at all.

I'm sorry that's not a lot of information.

Thank you for your help!

If you don't exactly care about looks go with the 3000k. Lot more red which green things like.
Lets pretend you get all that light over say a 12" diameter circle.
That would get you about 616 Lux.

Or about 10 PAR

Raising or lowering it is how you "focus" btw.
You can get 150 lumens out of a 3w white led.
You can get a ton of par if it is focused.

If focused in about a 6" circle.. 40 par.
Concentrate (180 lumens) it in a 2" circle (24,091 lux).. 386 PAR.

Spread of the light and area it impacts is what counts.

Oh and what looks bright to you isn't necessarily bright to plants.

At 4" say off the water line and a 120 degree led spread you get a "spot" size of 14"
Calculates to about 7 par at the water surface.

All rough estimates.

Point is.. what area do you want to cover to start?

 

[MoshJosh]

My guess. . . if you just want macro and xenia. . . and it looks bright. . . meh it's probably work well enough.

 

[Reefing102]

Macro you should be fine. I grew macro just fine with a standard screw socket LED bulb with no issues.

Xenia…well it’s Xenia. It grows pretty much everywhere so while it may not be strong enough for impressive growth, I’d imagine pretty good to live.

 

[oreo54]

Macro you should be fine. I grew macro just fine with a standard screw socket LED bulb with no issues.

Xenia…well it’s Xenia. It grows pretty much everywhere so while it may not be strong enough for impressive growth, I’d imagine pretty good to live.

Keep in mind that light is 4-10x less lumens than your ordinary house bulb.
Of course it has a horrible dispersal pattern (your bulb) for growing stuff.
Much would depend on the environment i.e walls ect around it.


Suppose the best way to find out is give it a shot....

 

[dansyr]

The lights are 10-180 lumens and 3000/4500/6500K, depending on what you set them at, so I'd go with the highest intensity 180 lumens, 6500K.

Is that 180 lumens total, or 180 lumens per light times X lights? Just asking because that's a fairly big difference, 180 lumens total for a 13" bowl would be shocking if enough. But if you had a couple of them, that sounds a lot more possible. I'm assuming the fixtures you're talking about are the book/counter light type things, which are great in context but are likely made with a couple 0.2 or 0.5w surface mount LEDs that don't have much 'punch'.

For context I have 4x ~1100 lumen white strips over a 3' x 1' terarrium for some low/medium light orchids. No water absorption, no PAR numbers, just giving you something similar using these units and photosynthesizers. If your anticipated bowl system is 12' x 12' then that's 1/3 the footprint but 1/24th the lumens + all the other water effects.

 

[DCJ]

@ISpeakForTheSeas I think you're right. I'm going to try it, because I can always move the contents into my other tanks if it's a failure. I'm going to try a FW shrimp tank beside it too - fingers crossed? Thank you so much for your input, I appreciate it

@Diastro I thought I might be able to get away with it because of the light needs of the things inside. Hearing affirmatives from people is really reassuring!

Thank you for taking the time to reply

@jda oh, nice! Ah, the space I want to put the thing has no sockets nearby. I'm going to have to run the heater on a USB battery pack too, I think. Not ideal, but needs must. If the experiment fails, I have places for the contents to go.
Eek!

Thank you for taking the time to comment, I appreciate it

@oreo54 Like the plant grow lights that look pink? I might have to go with the whiter lights, because the things is there to look nice and it's something for the household.

I might copy-paste your help for future reference. I still don't fully understand it (that's a me thing, this stuff just won't click for me) but reading that makes sense.

Ah, I haven't got the bowl yet. The space where the bowl will go is a bookshelf shelf is 13" tall and 10" wide (and about 28" long), without clearance for anything.

I suspect the bowl will be near 10" around at maximum in that case, and probably no more than 4" max from the light.

I'm not sure how many LEDs are in the thing - I can't see it when it's off and I can't look at it when it's on because it triggers migraines, blah

I'm sorry! I know it's unhelpful, but thank you so much for your technical help. It's like another language!


@MoshJosh lol, that's the vibe I'm getting, but it'd be nice to know before I go through the work of setting the bowl up

@Reefing102 I hoped so re: the macro. I'm actually more worried about that than the xenia! If it just stays as a little bushel of xenia and still pulses, I'd be happy


@dansyr I... have no idea? Total I think? I wanted to do a row of two along the underside of the bookshelf. Yeees, those things, but more compact and less 'string of LEDS' - I did wonder about that. I'm sorry I don't have that info! This would be much easier if I did.

That a) sounds beautiful and b) is really helpful. The bowl will be 10" max, probably a little less, real pico. Do you have those micro orchids?

Thank you for taking the time to comment, and your help!




Wow, you guys, I'm- you're all so freaking sweet, thank you for taking the time to help my idiot self with this stupid question ;_;

 

[oreo54]

and I can't look at it when it's on because it triggers migraines, blah

Hmm odd in a dc driven led that isn't dimmed. There should be no "flicker" which seems to be the major cause in sensitive individuals.
Now a household bulb (led or compact florescent) is understandable.

Oh wait you did say it was dim-able didn't you?

Dimming would be a complication in your case though "I believe" that is the switching frequency that would be the main culprit.
New to me is that color may play a part as well at least at making them worse.

LED lights and headaches: What to know

LED lights may cause headaches or trigger migraine in some people. Learn more about the relationship between LED lights, headaches, and migraine here.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Migraine photophobia originating in cone-driven retinal pathways

Migraine headache is commonly exacerbated by light (photophobia). Noseda, Burstein et al . show that green light alleviates the headache whereas blue, ambe

academic.oup.com

The Truth about LED Light Sensitivity & Migraine

Whether you have migraine or another light-sensitive condition, LED lighting can wreak havoc on your symptoms. Here's why this occurs for so many patients.

www.theraspecs.com

But who wants to live in a solid green world.

Most leds are dimmed in the 500Hz range which is a much faster "blinking" than the usual 60Hz found in a lot of lighting though the last article above seems to acknowledge the faster switching (blink) times.

Why am I bothering with this? Well there are current products that can address those issues but NOTE not all of this is proven.

But first to the switching thing:
You know those reels of leds they sell are driven in what is called constant voltage mode. Basically a power supply of one voltage (12 or 24V typical). Some leds in series, and each little series string ends with a resistor to limit the current.
Then a bunch of these (usually 3 diodes and 1 resistor for 12v) are run in parallel.

Point is they are really pretty flicker free EXCEPT when you add a dimmer. Then you get back to the same problem.

Good thing though is this type can be very very thin taking up practically no height worth mentioning.
These can be attached directly to the underside of say a shelf.
It as you probably gathered is a bit of a DIY but in the best case involves nothing more than cutting and snapping some parts/wires on and of course attaching them to a shelf. At worst some soldering.
There are a ton of videos on how to do it.
Also there are a ton of different power densities (diodes/inch) and colors. RGB works pretty good for plants.
Since you may want to run less blue (RGB have a tendency at 100% to be blue cast) neutral leds in say 4500-5550K will be better than 6500k or greater.
AGAIN though you may need to design wisely since you may not want to use a dimmer.
Might be hard to get too much light with the lower density/output strips though.

Which brings us a bit back to color. There are "specialty" leds that do not use blue at all or limit blue by using smaller wavelengths into the violet range. Not sure this impacts migraine sensitivity but could be worth a try. Problem though, finding some "easily" useable and/or not expensive, or not short lived. The royal blue base on white leds is one of the longest, most stable led colors and since produced in mass, cheapest. To make a white led they just use a royal blue colored led and add a yellow/green phosphor.
Warmer ones like 3500K add some red phosphor as well.
Tricks your eyes to see white.
The violet base ones still have blue (via a blue emitting phosphor) but at reduced levels.
https://www.ledsmagazine.com/leds-s...ntroduce-broadspectrum-led-technology-updated
Just for fun:

https://www.master.lighting/colours

As to normal leds, you also can get solid boards i.e leds on stiff aluminum:
https://www.ledsupply.com/led-strip..._b_GSl3_WMYd2JLiRdZyRFyv3FHSCNScaAk7UEALw_wcB

Opps those boards are the wrong type. Just as an example.

 

[dansyr]

@dansyr I... have no idea? Total I think? I wanted to do a row of two along the underside of the bookshelf. Yeees, those things, but more compact and less 'string of LEDS' - I did wonder about that. I'm sorry I don't have that info! This would be much easier if I did.

That a) sounds beautiful and b) is really helpful. The bowl will be 10" max, probably a little less, real pico. Do you have those micro orchids?

That's helpful! And actually a good thing if it's more compact, that means putting a couple of them together will let them be closer, so you can get a better "density" of light. Lots of fixtures are actually relatively weak emitters, just packed together. if you can get 2-3 of them somewhat clustered over the center of your bowl, and as close to the surface, that might work. Frankly I'm dubious about the convenience of using battery packs, but where there's a will there's a way

And yes, I'm into orchids also! I don't have any of the micro-micro orchids like the lepanthes, but I have a couple micros and minis like Stelis, Bulbophyllum, Rodriguezia, Koellensteinia, tolumnia, few others in there I'm not thinking of atm. I had some Masdevallia that were doing really well but there was an AC issue this summer and its part of the house got up to 95F a few days in a row and they didn't bouce back from that unfortunately :/ One hybrid masdie is still kicking so I hope that makes it through. Are you also into orchids?

 

[oreo54]

You want to run a heater off a battery pack?
Not that is going outside the box.
Here is a little 20w heater that runs off if 12v.
Suppose one could use a small 12v battery instead of the wall wart.
States it is good for up to 3.5gal
Looks like one temp though of 79 degrees.



A small 12v 7Ah battery or 84watthours
" may" run that heater for 4 hours.
Figured differently
1.67A for the heater 4.2 hours.Though I' m pretty sure it is more complicated than that and above is probably technicality correct in real life I'm pretty sure it is not longer than that.

Maybe with a solar panel (20w panel) and controller it is " possible" and depending on on/ off times to actually make that work.

Sounds complicated and not user friendly without real power I e a wall plug.

You will have a lot more parts than tank.

 

[DCJ]

@oreo54

I have chronic migraines, every day for the past 8 years; my brain is so oversensitised by now that any bright light can provoke them. I can't go outside without shades, but yeah, doctor's offices and shopping centres and such are murder. The little LED light was just really bright and wham, pain.

I've heard about the light therapy thing with migraines, but I haven't tried I'm under a neurologist team and I'm trying the new IV treatment every 3 months atm. We don't have the new 'gepant' drug over here in the UK yet, but I hear good things about them, so I'm looking forward for them coming over here.

With the green lights, I know that it has to be a certain type of green, but honestly, if it even cut my pain in half and still left me with a daily migraine, I'd gladly live in a green world.

I wonder what that would be like in terms of how I'd set up my tanks to look nice to me - like you'd have to wear green lenses to see it the way I would, and how it would look without them.

It was really sweet of you to link those articles, thank you!

I don't think blue is going to be necessary, so that might work.

Lol, yeaaah, the heater. I saw some USB heaters that plug into a USB battery pack, which I'll probably end up using - the fixed temp seems to come with those, which is a little annoying.

I haven't looked into the battery life yet though, UGHH, I might have to get two like the lights and switch them out.

Yeah, it sucks, I wish there was a socket there. It's in such a weird place that I can't even run an extension cord that way without causing a trip hazard.

I have a battery run air pump too, I'm going to run a FW shrimp bowl beside it. I think I'll put all the battery packs in one corner and create a screen for them, so I can just move it to change battery packs out, but so that it's hidden the rest of the time.


A project for sure, but I get bored when I can't get out of bed with my migraines and just kind of play around with making thought experiments into reality.

You've been so helpful though, thank you!



@dansyr I'm dubious about it too! lol. I'll have to keep a close eye on them and make sure nothing conks out early. I'm more confident with experiments like this with FW tanks, because I've got more experience in that field, but also because I have less uncertainty about what lights will grow what plants (I mean, red plants are bitchy about light, but most other stuff will grow okay under those kind of LEDS)

I'm going to start with 1 and build up depending on the response of the macroalgae and xenia.


No, but I've passed by the orchid world while planning out terrariums for dart frogs (I ended up deciding not to keep them because handling fruit flies is a pain! I did it when I kept praying mantis and for spiderlings but I hate them and I refuse to do them anymore! So I'm going Cuban False Chameleon instead, I'd much rather deal with snails)

I discovered those mini orchids planted in the moss of the walls of terrariums and it was beautiful. I'd love to get back into it, actually. I have some of your usual common moth orchids - I really want to try mounting them on their side the way they usually grow, but I might leave that to when I set the terrarium up.

Man, I'm sorry to hear that! I dabble in plants a little, but orchids have always scared me a little. I've got one of those Ikea glass cabinets set up as a greenhouse though, I don't know if that would give me any better luck. I was using the bottom half to house a fish tank for humidity, and so that I could squeeze another tank into my room, but getting into it for maintenance turned out to be too much of a hassle so I'm taking it back out (no fish in there yet thankfully) - that means I'll have the entire bottom half of the greenhouse free though!

What would you recommend as a beginner species apart from the Phalaenopsis? Do you have any pics?

Sorry, I get enthusiastic about other people's hobbies, lol