Not having success. I need help.

[Llorgon]

Hey guys, not really brand new to feeding, but I feel like I could use some new reefer advice.

A bit of a backstory, I have been feeding for 3 years.

First tank(10 gal)
Had some success for a few months corals were growing, minimal algae. Then corals started going downhill and algae took over. I later learned that I had to be dosing alk, call and mag.

Second tank(75 gal)
Had some success for a few months, good coral growth. Then a power head melted in the tank and killed everything. All fish, snails, corals everything.

Second tank.2 electric boogaloo
Restart of the 75 gallon started well. Corals were doing well. I was seeing growth with lps and sps. Then slowly all the growth stopped and corals would go downhill even with parameters in check. I ended up with dinos then gha after getting past dinos. Tank was shut down when I moved.

Current tank(IM 25)
I'm seeing the same problems with my current tank. Gha is taking over and corals are not as happy as they once were. Also all growth of the corals seems to have stopped.

A little about the tank
IM 25
4 fish
6 snails/hermits - I need more cuc, but it's been hard to order here due to covid.
Sicce 1.5 return pump
Ghost protein skimmer
Mp10 - 80% max reef crest mode
Radio xr 30 - on 9am off 9pm, 25% intensity LPS mode
15lbs rock

Tank params are:
Salinity: 1.026
Temp: 79
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 1.5
Phosphate: 0.061
Alkalinity: 10.5
Calcium: 470
Magnesium: 1370

Dosing/husbandry
Not dosing any elements. Params stay high with water changes.
5 gal weekly water changes
Vacuum sand every week.
Adding 0.7ml vodka daily to keep nutrients in check.
Weekly dose of waste away
Nightly scrubbing algae off rocks
Change filter socks once a week

Feeding
1/4 cube various frozen foods
Sometimes flake/pellets
Feed corals once a week.

What am I missing? How can I have a successful thriving tank instead of a few months of growth and then everything slowly dying.

I feel like I have missed some sort of very beginner thing here!

 

[Rjmul]

Hey guys, not really brand new to feeding, but I feel like I could use some new reefer advice.

A bit of a backstory, I have been feeding for 3 years.

First tank(10 gal)
Had some success for a few months corals were growing, minimal algae. Then corals started going downhill and algae took over. I later learned that I had to be dosing alk, call and mag.

Second tank(75 gal)
Had some success for a few months, good coral growth. Then a power head melted in the tank and killed everything. All fish, snails, corals everything.

Second tank.2 electric boogaloo
Restart of the 75 gallon started well. Corals were doing well. I was seeing growth with lps and sps. Then slowly all the growth stopped and corals would go downhill even with parameters in check. I ended up with dinos then gha after getting past dinos. Tank was shut down when I moved.

Current tank(IM 25)
I'm seeing the same problems with my current tank. Gha is taking over and corals are not as happy as they once were. Also all growth of the corals seems to have stopped.

A little about the tank
IM 25
4 fish
6 snails/hermits - I need more cuc, but it's been hard to order here due to covid.
Sicce 1.5 return pump
Ghost protein skimmer
Mp10 - 80% max reef crest mode
Radio xr 30 - on 9am off 9pm, 25% intensity LPS mode
15lbs rock

Tank params are:
Salinity: 1.026
Temp: 79
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 1.5
Phosphate: 0.061
Alkalinity: 10.5
Calcium: 470
Magnesium: 1370

Dosing/husbandry
Not dosing any elements. Params stay high with water changes.
5 gal weekly water changes
Vacuum sand every week.
Adding 0.7ml vodka daily to keep nutrients in check.
Weekly dose of waste away
Nightly scrubbing algae off rocks
Change filter socks once a week

Feeding
1/4 cube various frozen foods
Sometimes flake/pellets
Feed corals once a week.

What am I missing? How can I have a successful thriving tank instead of a few months of growth and then everything slowly dying.

I feel like I have missed some sort of very beginner thing here!

Your parameters seem to be in check. Alk is a BIT high, considering your nutrients are so low but not a huge deal. I kind of do the same thing.

What kind of freshwater are you using ? RODI ? Distilled ? I use distilled

 

[Llorgon]

Your parameters seem to be in check. Alk is a BIT high, considering your nutrients are so low but not a huge deal. I kind of do the same thing.

What kind of freshwater are you using ? RODI ? Distilled ? I use distilled

RODI.

I mix water change water in a brute trash can.

 

[Ippyroy]

I'd stop feed feeding the corals. Most coral foods aren't needed and add a lot of extra nutrients to the tank that algae uses to grow. Nutrients will then test low, yet they are in the algae. Don't scrub the rocks, try to actually remove the algae.

 

[KleineVampir]

The use of the waste-away is what bothers me most. Sounds like you might be creating a break in the nitrogen cycle every time you use it. The bacteria need to strengthen to handle the load, not waste away.

 

[Rjmul]

RODI.

I mix water change water in a brute trash can.

On a second read through I realized your nutrients are so low because there is so much algae. The nutrients are there, they're just in the algae. I've gone through a lot of manual algae removal myself and that seems to be the best way to do it. Just pick some out every single day. Eventually you'll get ahead of it. I keep my cleanup crew pretty beefy. Have a tang, have a lawnmower blenny, tuxedo urchin. but..... they're more or a maintenance thing. They won't eat clumps of algae.

 

[Llorgon]

I'd stop feed feeding the corals. Most coral foods aren't needed and add a lot of extra nutrients to the tank that algae uses to grow. Nutrients will then test low, yet they are in the algae. Don't scrub the rocks, try to actually remove the algae.

Ok. I will stop the coral feeding. I have been scrubbing the rocks and then removing the algae from the filter socks. I can manually remove the algae on the back wall or around some of the coral, but I can't get my fingers into the holes in the rocks to grab the algae.

The use of the waste-away is what bothers me most. Sounds like you might be creating a break in the nitrogen cycle every time you use it. The bacteria need to strengthen to handle the load, not waste away.

I was using waste away on the advice from members in the best algae forum. I have been using it for about a month and haven't noticed much improvement. So I'm ok with stopping it.

On a second read through I realized your nutrients are so low because there is so much algae. The nutrients are there, they're just in the algae. I've gone through a lot of manual algae removal myself and that seems to be the best way to do it. Just pick some out every single day. Eventually you'll get ahead of it. I keep my cleanup crew pretty beefy. Have a tang, have a lawnmower blenny, tuxedo urchin. but..... they're more or a maintenance thing. They won't eat clumps of algae.

I had really high nutrients so I started vodka dosing and actively trying to lower them. Now they are low, but the algae is still growing just the same.

I try and remove as much as possible during water changes. I scrub the algae off the rocks and then empty it from the filter socks where it collects. Any tips on getting the algae off manually? Tweezers maybe?

 

[Ippyroy]

Ok. I will stop the coral feeding. I have been scrubbing the rocks and then removing the algae from the filter socks. I can manually remove the algae on the back wall or around some of the coral, but I can't get my fingers into the holes in the rocks to grab the algae.



I was using waste away on the advice from members in the best algae forum. I have been using it for about a month and haven't noticed much improvement. So I'm ok with stopping it.



I had really high nutrients so I started vodka dosing and actively trying to lower them. Now they are low, but the algae is still growing just the same.

I try and remove as much as possible during water changes. I scrub the algae off the rocks and then empty it from the filter socks where it collects. Any tips on getting the algae off manually? Tweezers maybe?

If possible, remove one rock at a time and scrub in the bucket filled with old tank water. Scrubbing the rocks in the tank is not removing the nutrients. I hope this makes sense.

 

[R.Weller]

How long has your current tank been running & did you start with dry rock?

With everything you have listed, I wonder if you have tried dosing phyto & zooplankton? How does the water column look when the lights are out? Can you see a Pod population? It sounds like the system might be starved at the lowest levels on the food chain.

 

[Llorgon]

If possible, remove one rock at a time and scrub in the bucket filled with old tank water. Scrubbing the rocks in the tank is not removing the nutrients. I hope this makes sense.

Yep makes sense. I will give that a try!

How long has your current tank been running & did you start with dry rock?

With everything you have listed, I wonder if you have tried dosing phyto & zooplankton? How does the water column look when the lights are out? Can you see a Pod population? It sounds like the system might be starved at the lowest levels on the food chain.

Tank has been running since December. Started with dry rock.

I have not tried dosing phyto & zooplankton. When the lights are out the water looks pretty clear? I honestly haven't paid too much attention. I will take a look and see. Anything I should be looking for?

There are pods in the tank. I can see some in the sand and sometimes on the rocks. Probably could use more though.

 

[KleineVampir]

Honestly, I don't believe in doing ANYTHING. No water changes, no vodka, definitely no waste-away...The worst that can happen with that is that you get algae. But if you have an algae scrubber or a refugium you might very well not even have that! Or just a little as I find. You don't have to try to be like me and go water change free but I think you could definitely benefit from going au naturale for a while!

 

[fishguy242]

hi.wean off vodka 1/2then 1/4 what you are dosing now to stop using over course of 2 weeks,stop w away,bucket scrub and swish in second rinse bucket ,that will be your water change

 

[najer]

You don't have to try to be like me and go water change free but I think you could definitely benefit from going au naturale for a while!

This, let it do it's thing for a while and get those nitrates up, I also don't do water changes but it is not for everyone.

 

[R.Weller]

Yep makes sense. I will give that a try!


Tank has been running since December. Started with dry rock.

I have not tried dosing phyto & zooplankton. When the lights are out the water looks pretty clear? I honestly haven't paid too much attention. I will take a look and see. Anything I should be looking for?

There are pods in the tank. I can see some in the sand and sometimes on the rocks. Probably could use more though.

Dry rock takes months to cure (leaching PO4) that will absolutely impact growth. But you have also been doing a ton of export with 20% weekly changes. That volume seems very aggressive to me & perhaps it has been long enough, but it took us about 1 year to ‘grow it out’ using a DIY Algae Scrubber, the skimmer & manual removal instead of water changes. We do not use a filter sock or any other disposable media. Our system is around 425 gallons & we add 100ml of phyto daily (cultured at home).

We started dosing phyto at recommended levels back in April & we have grown & added Pods three times since then. Depending on the phyto that you use, it can add nutrients to the water, but it also feeds a host of zooplankton that in turn, both feeds many of the corals & consumes nutrients. They are most active in the dark, & a healthy population can be seen as tiny specs free swimming near the rock work or by shinning a flashlight into one of the bottom corners at night. We noticed the corals, Zoa colonies in particular, extending at night after the Pod culture was established. We’ve also seen increased growth in our SPS corals.

I mention this because you seem to have done the research & tried a few other methods & perhaps it’s worth the investment in time & effort to grow some cultures to try a more biological approach. It’s not for everyone, but it is working for us on our most stubborn corals.

 

[Llorgon]

Honestly, I don't believe in doing ANYTHING. No water changes, no vodka, definitely no waste-away...The worst that can happen with that is that you get algae. But if you have an algae scrubber or a refugium you might very well not even have that! Or just a little as I find. You don't have to try to be like me and go water change free but I think you could definitely benefit from going au naturale for a while!

I was going natural for awhile and I would watch nutrients go up and up even with weekly water changes. Which is why all the extra stuff started. Maybe the key here is the algae scrubber or refugium. The tank is AIO so right now I have neither. Seems like something I should look into though.

hi.wean off vodka 1/2then 1/4 what you are dosing now to stop using over course of 2 weeks,stop w away,bucket scrub and swish in second rinse bucket ,that will be your water change

So I wean my tank off of vodka, how do I manage nutrients then? vodka started because water changes weren't keeping things in check.

Should I do all the rocks at once every week or stagger the rocks from week to week?

Dry rock takes months to cure (leaching PO4) that will absolutely impact growth. But you have also been doing a ton of export with 20% weekly changes. That volume seems very aggressive to me & perhaps it has been long enough, but it took us about 1 year to ‘grow it out’ using a DIY Algae Scrubber, the skimmer & manual removal instead of water changes. We do not use a filter sock or any other disposable media. Our system is around 425 gallons & we add 100ml of phyto daily (cultured at home).

We started dosing phyto at recommended levels back in April & we have grown & added Pods three times since then. Depending on the phyto that you use, it can add nutrients to the water, but it also feeds a host of zooplankton that in turn, both feeds many of the corals & consumes nutrients. They are most active in the dark, & a healthy population can be seen as tiny specs free swimming near the rock work or by shinning a flashlight into one of the bottom corners at night. We noticed the corals, Zoa colonies in particular, extending at night after the Pod culture was established. We’ve also seen increased growth in our SPS corals.

I mention this because you seem to have done the research & tried a few other methods & perhaps it’s worth the investment in time & effort to grow some cultures to try a more biological approach. It’s not for everyone, but it is working for us on our most stubborn corals.

I'm all for the biological approach! I have some flux rx on order, but I would rather not use that if possible. But that's kinda where I am at with the tank right now.

I definitely don't have tons of little specs in the water at night. There are some pods though.

You mentioned improvements in corals when adding phyto and pods. Any noticeable change in nutrient levels?

Now I am asking this without reading into it at all. How complicated, time consuming, space consuming is it to culture pods, phyto and zooplankton at home?


So from all the responses so far it sounds like my first course of action to right this ship is
1. Stop using waste away
2. Start weaning off of vodka dosing
3. Manually removing algae and scrubbing rocks in separate bucket.
4. Look into algae scrubbers/refugiums for AIO tanks, look into phyto, pod,zooplankton culturing

 

[R.Weller]

You mentioned improvements in corals when adding phyto and pods. Any noticeable change in nutrient levels?

We fought nutrients like mad regardless of how frequent we did water changes in our smaller system & designed it out with the upgrades. For example, in our 60gal display, we managed only a ~5gal refugium in our 20gal sump. With our 300gal display, we have a remote refugium using a 50gal rubbermaid stock tank. Here's a recent pic shared on another thread.

We use 1ml of F2 to create 64oz of phyto. That's a really small amount of nutrient & most of it is consumed by the phyto before it enters the system. Other methods will add more nutrients, but in my opinion, the net benefit in the Pod population far outweighs the the added nutrient. We only use API checkers for NO3 & PO4, & only measure once every few months a few days after we have added stock. Every time that we check it reads 0 (accepting that the color scales for API are hard to read). We also move slow enough that it allows the bio load to rebalance after we make additions & we are using an algae scrubber which makes harvesting algae (nutrient export) really, really easy. Last time I checked it was 31-May. I'm happy to do another test this evening & post those results on this thread if that will help.

As you have found, corals & CUC are really good indicators when things are in balance. We recently added 30+ snails to our CUC & I neglected to move our larger snails to the refugium. After a few weeks, I found two of our 4 large snails had starved. I was bummed b/c the refugium is full of algae, & we had purchased them years ago to help control algae in our 60gal & while I meant to move them, I forgot about then until I found a hermit crab working away.

Now I am asking this without reading into it at all. How complicated, time consuming, space consuming is it to culture pods, phyto and zooplankton at home?

As far as effort, once you get it running, it takes only minutes to split a culture & mix saltwater every 7 - 10 days depending on your lighting. We are using DIY everything, & cheap plant grow lights. Space is up to you, but for a 25 gal, a 16oz bottle will last you awhile. The general rule is 5ml / 10gal x3 - 4 per week. But like everything, you don't start out full dose but build up to that. We started at 20% for a few months & increased to 50% for another 2 months. We only went to full strength after we were producing it at home. There is a sticky thread on the DIY forum that has a lot of great info. We also documented our here on R2R as well.

For Pods, after you have phyto, buy a starter culture from someone in your community or a dealer online. Pour half in your sump, then fill the bottle w/ some tank water & add 10 - 20ml of live phyto. Depending on the species, the lifecycle is around 21 - 28 days. I add a 2 - 5 ml of phyto to the bottle every few days. It doesn't take long for these to reproduce & again fill the bottle. I run an air line to the Pod culture but otherwise, it's kept a room temp. Again, the amount of space is determined by the size of the cutlure vessel.

There are some tricks that you pick-up along the way, but having gone down this route, I'm irritated that we didn't start it sooner. Happy to help along they way if I can.

 

[Llorgon]

We fought nutrients like mad regardless of how frequent we did water changes in our smaller system & designed it out with the upgrades. For example, in our 60gal display, we managed only a ~5gal refugium in our 20gal sump. With our 300gal display, we have a remote refugium using a 50gal rubbermaid stock tank. Here's a recent pic shared on another thread.

We use 1ml of F2 to create 64oz of phyto. That's a really small amount of nutrient & most of it is consumed by the phyto before it enters the system. Other methods will add more nutrients, but in my opinion, the net benefit in the Pod population far outweighs the the added nutrient. We only use API checkers for NO3 & PO4, & only measure once every few months a few days after we have added stock. Every time that we check it reads 0 (accepting that the color scales for API are hard to read). We also move slow enough that it allows the bio load to rebalance after we make additions & we are using an algae scrubber which makes harvesting algae (nutrient export) really, really easy. Last time I checked it was 31-May. I'm happy to do another test this evening & post those results on this thread if that will help.

As you have found, corals & CUC are really good indicators when things are in balance. We recently added 30+ snails to our CUC & I neglected to move our larger snails to the refugium. After a few weeks, I found two of our 4 large snails had starved. I was bummed b/c the refugium is full of algae, & we had purchased them years ago to help control algae in our 60gal & while I meant to move them, I forgot about then until I found a hermit crab working away.



As far as effort, once you get it running, it takes only minutes to split a culture & mix saltwater every 7 - 10 days depending on your lighting. We are using DIY everything, & cheap plant grow lights. Space is up to you, but for a 25 gal, a 16oz bottle will last you awhile. The general rule is 5ml / 10gal x3 - 4 per week. But like everything, you don't start out full dose but build up to that. We started at 20% for a few months & increased to 50% for another 2 months. We only went to full strength after we were producing it at home. There is a sticky thread on the DIY forum that has a lot of great info. We also documented our here on R2R as well.

For Pods, after you have phyto, buy a starter culture from someone in your community or a dealer online. Pour half in your sump, then fill the bottle w/ some tank water & add 10 - 20ml of live phyto. Depending on the species, the lifecycle is around 21 - 28 days. I add a 2 - 5 ml of phyto to the bottle every few days. It doesn't take long for these to reproduce & again fill the bottle. I run an air line to the Pod culture but otherwise, it's kept a room temp. Again, the amount of space is determined by the size of the cutlure vessel.

There are some tricks that you pick-up along the way, but having gone down this route, I'm irritated that we didn't start it sooner. Happy to help along they way if I can.

ok you definitely have my interest on the pods, phyto and zooplankton growing. I will definitely be looking into that more!

What I think I am really struggling with is the nutrient export. Which I think kind of means I either need an external algae scrubber or refugium. I have a spare 10gal that I could turn into a external refugium and maybe add a smaller version of your algae scrubber you have in your larger refugium. Or would just an algae scrubber give me more nutrient export?

 

[R.Weller]

I would add the refugium for sure. Pods installed there should reproduce without any additional work on your part & help feed the reef.

Scrubbers are amazing & a very fulfilling DIY project if you have the desire. It would absolutely help / solve your export issue. There are recents threads arguing that they are too effective. I’ve never followed that logic as anything that gets us closer to nature is an ideal target in my book.

Here are the details on our build. Post 4 has a few references to others designs that I found helpful long after ours was built.

DIY Waterfall ATS - 1 yr later

There are several great DIY algae turf scrubbers here on the forum, so I figured I would share what has worked for our system. An important note at the start...we have a large system that is lightly stocked, but I do expect this to scale as the system matures. Our sump is located behind the...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Llorgon]

ah Thanks for that list! Good resource.

I would like to add a refugium, just not sure what is the best way with the AIO tank. I saw one version of a external refugium for a AIO that was above the main tank. One line going into the refugium and one gravity line return. My only worry would be the return line getting plugged and the refugium overflowing.

I could put a 10 or 20 gal I have laying around beside the main tank on the floor, but I am not sure what the best way to plumb that into the main tank would be.

I also came across this as a possible easy DIY algae scrubber Since my DIY skills are pretty bad.

 

[R.Weller]

ah Thanks for that list! Good resource.

I would like to add a refugium, just not sure what is the best way with the AIO tank. I saw one version of a external refugium for a AIO that was above the main tank. One line going into the refugium and one gravity line return. My only worry would be the return line getting plugged and the refugium overflowing.

I could put a 10 or 20 gal I have laying around beside the main tank on the floor, but I am not sure what the best way to plumb that into the main tank would be.

I also came across this as a possible easy DIY algae scrubber Since my DIY skills are pretty bad.

This is an uplift design & I imagine it would be successful in your tank. I saw his original (the blue plastic one) & it's nice to see that he has published an updated approach. The best part about DIY is you can follow step by step & get something started quickly then refactor & adjust over time to something that is better suited to your changing environment. It would be easy on your tank to try something like this & it will add air to the water (more on that below).

While I don't have experience working with AIO, if you have the space & are willing to build, a remote refugium would be great. I just looked at your build thread (nice job btw), & you might be able to use a HOB refugium or perhaps you could install a shelf over the top. A refugium is nothing more than 5 - 10gallons, low flow & a plant light that runs off-cycle from your main tank. You could put a 5gallon bucket in a cabinet overhead with a primary & emergency drain if you are concerned about it clogging. I would avoid attempting to put one on the floor next to the tank w/o using gravity as the drain (& the DIY King's over-the-top syphon overflow doesn't work over the long term...I've tried.).

With your current tank, I would imagine you are having pH swings (measure in the morning & after the light cycle at night to confirm). The uplift design will help with that but you might also consider a gravity kalk drip that runs overnight for your topoff water. That will also help keep pH stable.