Phytoplankton for control of Phophates and Nitrate in the Reef

[joeyb54]

I'm not convinced the addition of phytoplankton causes a significant net reduction in inorganic nutrients in the water, but in any case, I'm not sure that aspect is very important for most reefers either way since there are plenty of ways to accomplish it.

If the feeding of the tank organisms is beneficial for them, that's important (IMO). That's why many folks feed phyto now, and why I use organic carbon dosing (to drive bacteria, feed organisms, and reduce nutrients).

Where do you get organic carbon? What is it?

 

[Dr Blue Thumb]

@McMullen I am glade to hear. I am going a step further and I am suggesting that a tap water tank can someday win, If it hasn't already? I want to bring reef keeping to a science on where one can say they have 150 ppm tap water and have confidence that they can run there tanks on this.

I want to show that tap water is not all that bad and if it turns out to be this time, I will probably quit salt water all together, because there is no way for me to afford RODI water unless I do what I have been doing all this time.

I think I spent $3500 on this 90G experiment coming up and I know I can match my tap water/skimmerless tank against an rodi/skimmed tank. I hope I am not wrong I am trying to do things on a budget.

I would not exactly say it is Superior but that it is another option.

Of course skimmers are good and rodi water is good. But my way of doing things are good to. And if we taught this as another available option then more people would be into salt water. My goal is to come up with the cheapest way of having a successful reef while making it make money so one day a poor person like myself can afford a beautiful tank like yours. which is becoming a realty with every year that passes.

I want $600 per mushroom shrooms and 100 plus per palythoa/zoanthid too.

 

[Dr Blue Thumb]

@Dr Blue Thumb. You have posed several questions as well as share your experience and personal research. Is your goal to create your own 'brand' of phyto to sell? Are you attempting to prove a particular method successful or superior?

There are countless systems on reef2reef without a skimmer with great success. In fact R2R recently had an acro growout competition and the skimmerless tanks won!

I am in the very beginning stages, I do not think I can compete with the big guys. But God willing if it's in the cards I will, I would rather work with or for them then to step on too many toes.

I would love to get a grant and set up my own greenhouse and aquaculture facility. but lets face it it takes money to make money. And money is hard to come by.

 

[Dr Blue Thumb]

the bottle in the pic, it's from florida aqua farms, I believe is called micro algae grow. I used this because I can not trust miracle grow.

 

[revhtree]

Interesting discussion.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@McMullen
I want to show that tap water is not all that bad and if it turns out to be this time, I will probably quit salt water all together, because there is no way for me to afford RODI water unless I do what I have been doing all this time.
.

To optimize the chance of tap water working, never collect water that has been sitting long in your copper pipes. Let it run long enough so that you are getting water from the street mains that is less likely to have copper.

 

[Dr Blue Thumb]

Thanks will do that and use prime liquid, to get rid of the chlorine and chloramine. I will be running a carbon reactor on the tank too and was thinking of dosing 5 cups of phyto a day on my 90 in the long run once all the coral, critter's and sponges are in place. I was going to do a drip this time instead of dumping it in. I will start off with 1/2 cup daily and slowly add more daily every month until I am at 5 cups. then will stop there and buy a nitrate kit and phosphate kit, before adding more.

 

[shiftline]

I culture phyto and trade it to a LFS as well. I'm curious now and may start dumping more into my tank

 

[Dr Blue Thumb]

As long as you're using good fertalizer and are consistent at the time you culture it along with using good husbandry while culturing it, I would. Just beware of the small risk. If for example you have a large bioload with fishes and feed a lot of frozen and flake/pellet food then chances of a crash are higher. When I try it it was on a 20G with a pair of nemos/percs 10lbs of rock and about 5 lbs of frag plugs, 3"dsb no skimmer/refuge and activated carbon reactor, tap water,2 x t5 h.o.

We need more people willing to take risk for the advancementr of the hobby.

Can someone imagine dumping live calonoid and harbacticoid copepod in the tank too, they will stay alive long to be consumed and all the while have their stomachs stuffed with nutrition.

This could lead to healthier coral, faster coral growth and color similar to the ocean. phyto/zooplanton would help keep those beautiful hard to keep species that are lacking in the industry now.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Where do you get organic carbon? What is it?

Vinegar (acetic acid), vodka (ethanol), sugar (not my preference), commercial products such as NOPOX, etc.

 

[edosan]

Haven´t read everything but I do not think Phyto can bring No3 an Po4 down in a reef tank without side efects, and that side efects include diatoms look like problems.
Bacteria (Carbon Dosing) and Skimmers do that today in a very good way...I have done experiments with carbon dosing, and I have bring down No3 from 50ppm to 5 ppm in 1 week (not recomended if you have sps), just to see how fast this can work without damage sensitive corals.

 

[BlueCursor]

I recently saw the BRS video comparing different lighting on cheato algae growth and nutrient export. They also measured peak pH under the three different lights. The difference in control tank pH (about 8.1) and the light (Kessel H380 on grow mode) with the maximum pH (about 8.6) was huge. I have to think that a big part of this was due to phytoplankton and not just macro algae.

Of course, the problem is export. Unless you have something consuming phyto and growing, or a skimmer removing phyto, you aren't exporting NP. Phyto consuming NP vs. bacteria consuming NP is probably a good thing. I dose carbon, but I think I'm going to order a Kessel H380 for my fuge. If nothing else, high pH for my tank.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have to think that a big part of this was due to phytoplankton and not just macro algae.
.

Why do you think that?

 

[BlueCursor]

Why do you think that?

Because in my fuge I don't always have macro growing, yet the pH at night is higher when I run the light anyway instead of turning it off at night. So my pH must be benefiting from phyto and a light at night, instead of just macro and a light.

 

[Dr Blue Thumb]

Of course, the problem is export. Unless you have something consuming phyto and growing, or a skimmer removing phyto, you aren't exporting NP.

The coral,harbacticoids,sponges,worms,mysis shrimp,feather dusters,mini serpent stars,mini snails such as stomotella varia,chittons,clams,etc consume the phyto.

And now a calanoid copepods can be thrown into the mix to help balance the phyto.

So maybe one day we will have calanoid copepods on stand by for emergency situations of excess phyto in the tank.

I know it sounds like a lot of work for the average person/aquaculturalist, but it may have it's benefits depending on ones's goals.

Any phyto that remains will continue to grow for hours then be consumed by the above organisms, if dosed exactly right. if not dosed exactly right then a slight algae film will grow on the glass and be alive. this alive algae then can be scraped off the glass to feed the above organisms and the daily phyto can be skipped for the day until a proper dose is achieved through lowering the daily phyto amount given.

I want these in my tank:



And all over my tank along with hard to keep red/blue/orange/yellow carnation tree corals, coraline alagae and sexy sponges etc, something different.

Here is my 90G:



cycling with a few cheap fish:

It needs a lot of L.R still, for the next experiment in a few months I will dose large amount of phyto.

 

[Dr Blue Thumb]

The behavior of a non motile phyto. I think it will blow around in our tanks then ultimately end up on surfaces. Such as the glass, gravel, rocks and on top of coral etc. The thickness of algae on the glass will determine the amount of phyto you add. If you add too much, skip the daily addition of phyto and use your hand to scrape the phyto into the water column again and wait for your critters to consume that phyto.



If you do not mind, you can have a thick nori width, live algae filled with harpacticoids on the glass which then I person will slice off with a razor into bit size slices for fish etc

I'm the type of person that deliberately leaves the side and back of the glass to collect algae then once to twice a week I feed the fish/critters the algae on the glass and skip the regular feeding of frozen food.

If your the type of person that likes a barren tank that is clean at all times with hardly no life then this method might not be for you.

But if you are like me and you spent 12 years studying marine bio or if you like to push the limits of our tank and are a person with experience and great husbandry then give it a try.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Because in my fuge I don't always have macro growing, yet the pH at night is higher when I run the light anyway instead of turning it off at night. So my pH must be benefiting from phyto and a light at night, instead of just macro and a light.

Assuming there is no microalgae there (even a thin layer on the surfaces) then that is a reasonable conclusion. But I'm not sure how you disentangle these two possibilities easily.

 

[joeyb54]

Vinegar (acetic acid), vodka (ethanol), sugar (not my preference), commercial products such as NOPOX, etc.

Would distilled white vinegar work?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would distilled white vinegar work?

Yes. This has more:

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index...ar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

 

[Dr Blue Thumb]

I seen these flagella type whips with in the Aussi Recordia Yuma's that got excited when I turkey basted phyto towards them, maybe this is a food that they like? I heard that this may be the way they absorb the phyto among other ways like absorption through pores?

Are corals feeding ability similar to that of sponges?

5 minutes and 30 second mark shows how powerful sponges ability to filter water is: