Please help - what disease is this?

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal

1. How long and at what ppm bleach would be necessary to kill all parasites/eggs? 100 ppm? 24 hours? Less?
2. Would it be safe to have two qt tanks set up, add bleach directly to one tank after transfer of fish to other qt, let that sterilize with everything running for circulation, add prime to neutralize bleach, and then add fish into it at transfer time with some bottled bacteria? Or is it necessary to remove old water, bleach, rinse, etc. before adding fish back?
3. Would you recommend formalin bath and transfer to new qt every 5-7 days? Or something different like every 8 days like with prazipro?

Thank you.

IIRC, you need to go higher than 500ppm for 24 hours to kill Neobenedenia eggs.

Personally, I’d just go with hyposalinity. It always works for me and also controls ich.

Page 39 of this journal has arguably the best paper on Neobenedenia:

http://drumandcroaker.org/pdf/2020Issue.pdf

 

[WrasseyReefer]

IIRC, you need to go higher than 500ppm for 24 hours to kill Neobenedenia eggs.

Personally, I’d just go with hyposalinity. It always works for me and also controls ich.

Page 39 of this journal has arguably the best paper on Neobenedenia:

http://drumandcroaker.org/pdf/2020Issue.pdf

I’ve been doing hypo for weeks at 1.010-1.012 via instant ocean hydrometer and Milwaukee hydrometer, cross checked them with my tropic Marin hydrometer in normal salinity, and hypo does not seem to be working, so maybe it’s brackish flukes. Would some flukes require hypo to be at 1.009? They’ve also been through copper power 2.00-2.50 ppm via Hanna checker (checked with standards as well) for 35+ days. Sterilized tanks and reran prazipro. Antibiotics. I’m at my wits ends with whatever this is.

Firefish scratching on sand, multiple fish tattered fins and spending time at surface (two airstones, two wave makers pointed at surface, hob), bristle tooth tang skinny even though eating.

1. Would it be safe to have two qt tanks set up, add bleach directly to one tank after transfer of fish to other qt, let that sterilize with everything running for circulation, add prime to neutralize bleach, and then add fish into it at transfer time with some bottled bacteria? Or is it necessary to remove old water, bleach, rinse, etc. before adding fish back?
2. Would you recommend formalin bath and transfer to new qt every 5-7 days? Or something different like every 8 days like with prazipro?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I’ve been doing hypo for weeks at 1.010-1.012 via instant ocean hydrometer and Milwaukee hydrometer, cross checked them with my tropic Marin hydrometer in normal salinity, and hypo does not seem to be working, so maybe it’s brackish flukes. Would some flukes require hypo to be at 1.009? They’ve also been through copper power 2.00-2.50 ppm via Hanna checker (checked with standards as well) for 35+ days. Sterilized tanks and reran prazipro. Antibiotics. I’m at my wits ends with whatever this is.

Firefish scratching on sand, multiple fish tattered fins and spending time at surface (two airstones, two wave makers pointed at surface, hob), bristle tooth tang skinny even though eating.

1. Would it be safe to have two qt tanks set up, add bleach directly to one tank after transfer of fish to other qt, let that sterilize with everything running for circulation, add prime to neutralize bleach, and then add fish into it at transfer time with some bottled bacteria? Or is it necessary to remove old water, bleach, rinse, etc. before adding fish back?
2. Would you recommend formalin bath and transfer to new qt every 5-7 days? Or something different like every 8 days like with prazipro?

Typically, brackish water flukes get into marine aquariums through some brackish water fish - mollies, lookdowns, other inshore fish. I don't know if 1.009 is that much better than 1.012, but maybe?

I did find this excerpt:

The effects of heat (40, 50 and 60 °C), drying, freshwater, benzalkonium chloride (100 ppm) and chlorine (60 and 120 ppm available chlorine concentrations) treatments on the hatching abilities of Neobenedenia girellae and Benedenia seriolae eggs were studied. The eyeing and hatching rates of N. girellae and B. seriolae eggs heated at 50 and 60 °C for 1, 5 and 10 min; dried for 1 and 24 h; and treated with 120 ppm available chlorine concentration for 24 h were 0%. The eyeing and hatching rates of the eggs of both parasite species treated with freshwater, 100 ppm benzalkonium chloride and 60 ppm available chlorine concentration for 24 h were lower than those of controls (P < .05), but hatching was not prevented completely except in N. girellae eggs treated with 60 ppm available chlorine concentration for 24 h. In contrast, N. girellae eggs treated with 40 °C for 10, 30 and 60 min were not affected, although the hatching rates of B. seriolae eggs of these treatments were lower than those of the controls (P < .05). In addition, the eggs of these parasite species were not affected by freshwater, 100 ppm benzalkonium chloride, or 60 and 120 ppm available chlorine concentrations for 1 h. The results of this study may be useful for preventing horizontal infection with these parasites from used equipment and tanks in fish-rearing facilities.


The trick is that 120 ppm available chlorine is not "as dosed" because some of the chlorine gets neutralized by organics in the water before it can be a disinfectant. So - my advice of using 500 ppm might be overkill, but the actual amount may be around 250 ppm. Using more chlorine than needed is a problem since it is difficult to rinse off. Also, be very careful when sourcing chlorine. Back in the old days, you could just grab a bottle of Chlorox and know that you are getting 5.25% sodium hypochlorite. Nowadays, all the bleach seems to have surfactants and perfumes added. GFS used to sell regular bleach, not sure if they still do.

Jay

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Typically, brackish water flukes get into marine aquariums through some brackish water fish - mollies, lookdowns, other inshore fish. I don't know if 1.009 is that much better than 1.012, but maybe?

I did find this excerpt:

The effects of heat (40, 50 and 60 °C), drying, freshwater, benzalkonium chloride (100 ppm) and chlorine (60 and 120 ppm available chlorine concentrations) treatments on the hatching abilities of Neobenedenia girellae and Benedenia seriolae eggs were studied. The eyeing and hatching rates of N. girellae and B. seriolae eggs heated at 50 and 60 °C for 1, 5 and 10 min; dried for 1 and 24 h; and treated with 120 ppm available chlorine concentration for 24 h were 0%. The eyeing and hatching rates of the eggs of both parasite species treated with freshwater, 100 ppm benzalkonium chloride and 60 ppm available chlorine concentration for 24 h were lower than those of controls (P < .05), but hatching was not prevented completely except in N. girellae eggs treated with 60 ppm available chlorine concentration for 24 h. In contrast, N. girellae eggs treated with 40 °C for 10, 30 and 60 min were not affected, although the hatching rates of B. seriolae eggs of these treatments were lower than those of the controls (P < .05). In addition, the eggs of these parasite species were not affected by freshwater, 100 ppm benzalkonium chloride, or 60 and 120 ppm available chlorine concentrations for 1 h. The results of this study may be useful for preventing horizontal infection with these parasites from used equipment and tanks in fish-rearing facilities.


The trick is that 120 ppm available chlorine is not "as dosed" because some of the chlorine gets neutralized by organics in the water before it can be a disinfectant. So - my advice of using 500 ppm might be overkill, but the actual amount may be around 250 ppm. Using more chlorine than needed is a problem since it is difficult to rinse off. Also, be very careful when sourcing chlorine. Back in the old days, you could just grab a bottle of Chlorox and know that you are getting 5.25% sodium hypochlorite. Nowadays, all the bleach seems to have surfactants and perfumes added. GFS used to sell regular bleach, not sure if they still do.

Jay

I have mollies in there that were converted from freshwater to saltwater, so it sounds like brackish flukes are a possibility, especially since hypo doesn’t seem to be working.

I have regular bleach without any additives. Is it necessary to rinse out the bleach? Or could I just add bleach to the tank water, let that sterilize for 5-7 days (time between transfer) at 500ppm, prime it, then add fish back into it? I have chlorine test strips that read 0-500ppm.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I have mollies in there that were converted from freshwater to saltwater, so it sounds like brackish flukes are a possibility, especially since hypo doesn’t seem to be working.

I have regular bleach without any additives. Is it necessary to rinse out the bleach? Or could I just add bleach to the tank water, let that sterilize for 5-7 days (time between transfer) at 500ppm, prime it, then add fish back into it? I have chlorine test strips that read 0-500ppm.

I don’t think you can neutralize that much bleach without causing other chemical reactions. I would change all of the water and THEN use dechlorinator to neutralize any remaining chlorine. I’m not sure Prine is your best choice. I use sodium thiosulfate to neutralize chlorine.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

I don’t think you can neutralize that much bleach without causing other chemical reactions. I would change all of the water and THEN use dechlorinator to neutralize any remaining chlorine. I’m not sure Prine is your best choice. I use sodium thiosulfate to neutralize chlorine.

Okay, I will change out all the water then use dechlorinator. Is there a specific liquid product you recommend for dechlorinating or just pure sodium thiosulfate like this: https://a.co/d/eXjKJ4A

 

[WrasseyReefer]

I don’t think you can neutralize that much bleach without causing other chemical reactions. I would change all of the water and THEN use dechlorinator to neutralize any remaining chlorine. I’m not sure Prine is your best choice. I use sodium thiosulfate to neutralize chlorine.

Would it be safe to use a dechlorinator with formalin? I ask, because I wonder if I could use tap water rather than rodi to make the saltwater for the formalin bath.

Also, to confirm, 0.60 ml formalin/gallon for 45 minutes? 78F is fine? I’d aerate with airstones for an hour before and during bath. And I’ve read no plastics, as they can absorb formalin, so no hideys in the bath?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Okay, I will change out all the water then use dechlorinator. Is there a specific liquid product you recommend for dechlorinating or just pure sodium thiosulfate like this: https://a.co/d/eXjKJ4A

Wow - that’s cheap! I bet bottles of Prime or other products would cost more. I would just use this product. I can get you the calculations if you need it, I’d have to look it up in a reference book for sure, but I think a 2:1 ratio of sodium thio to chlorine will work.

 

[WrasseyReefer]

Wow - that’s cheap! I bet bottles of Prime or other products would cost more. I would just use this product. I can get you the calculations if you need it, I’d have to look it up in a reference book for sure, but I think a 2:1 ratio of sodium thio to chlorine will work.

Yeah, I’m not sure how much bleach each product can neutralize. I’d be interested to calculate the cost difference. Do you just add the solid sodium thiosulfate directly to the bleached water or do you pre-dissolve it in water and then pour that into the bleached water?

Is it safe to use sodium thiosulfate or prime with formalin if I use tap water for the saltwater in the formalin bath? Or should I use rodi?

Also, to confirm, 0.60 ml formalin/gallon for 45 minutes? 78F is fine? I’d aerate with airstones for an hour before and during bath. And I’ve read no plastics, as they can absorb formalin, so no hideys in the bath?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yeah, I’m not sure how much bleach each product can neutralize. I’d be interested to calculate the cost difference. Do you just add the solid sodium thiosulfate directly to the bleached water or do you pre-dissolve it in water and then pour that into the bleached water?

Is it safe to use sodium thiosulfate or prime with formalin if I use tap water for the saltwater in the formalin bath? Or should I use rodi?

Also, to confirm, 0.60 ml formalin/gallon for 45 minutes? 78F is fine? I’d aerate with airstones for an hour before and during bath. And I’ve read no plastics, as they can absorb formalin, so no hideys in the bath?

You need a fine gram scale to weigh out the sodium thiosulfate. Then, dissolve that amount in water before adding it to the tank.

Don't use formalin with sodium thio or prime. All three tend to remove oxygen from the water, so effects would be combined. There may also be direct chemical reactions.

Yes, 0.60 formalin per gallon is a bit above 150 ppm formalin. 45 minutes with good aeration is correct.

I'm not sure where you heard the no plastics thing. In thinking back, I've always done formalin dips in 5 gallon plastic buckets, and my quarantine tanks are either acrylic, polypropylene or fiberglas, and I've never had any issues. Shoot - it is usually stored in plastic containers (grin). Plastic is fine.

Jay

 

[WrasseyReefer]

@Jay Hemdal

Is there a reason for the transfers/formalin baths being every 5-7 days, rather than every 8-9 days like with dosing prazipro (to kill any new hatchlings before they lay eggs)? Is it to move the fish before any fluke eggs hatch?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

@Jay Hemdal

Is there a reason for the transfers/formalin baths being every 5-7 days, rather than every 8-9 days like with dosing prazipro (to kill any new hatchlings before they lay eggs)? Is it to move the fish before any fluke eggs hatch?

Timing of these treatments is all just a guess, as the life cycles vary between species and with water temperature, but in essence, you want to use a closer timing if you are dipping and transferring, but a longer time period if the fish remain in the same tank.

In the case of prazipro, what you are doing is trying to time it so the flukes hatch out, go through their larval stage and reattach to the fish - then you hit them with prazi before they can lay eggs of their own. You see, prazi doesn't kill flukes, it just paralyzes them for a bit, it makes them fall off the fish and then, they cannot get back to the fish and they die.

With formalin, you want the eggs to hatch (so they don't get carried along to the next transfer) but you need to kill the larval and young flukes with the formalin.

Jay