PNS PROBIO and Carbon dosing

[s_tempest]

I think you're correct. A good analogy would be with rubble and gravel, materials that we generally believe to be inferior to finer grained materials (i.e. sand/mud) for supporting an anoxic zone. It seems that chunkier materials actually provide excellent microhabitat for anaerobes (at least within the core), even when water flow around the particle is relatively strong. Maybe they even like the flow around the exterior of the particle, as it efficiently carries away wastes and delivers more nutrients. This study suggests that's at least true for denitrifying bacteria in general (including PNS bacteria): https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3c...10.1320731497.1612138666-583202434.1612138666 It's a long paper, but at least check out the sections on denitrification.

Thanks.
My PhD advisor was cited in that paper. It took me back to sediment biogeochem seminars of years past.
Interesting that nitrate reduction had such higher rates than denitrification. For nutrient removal, assimilatory NO3 reduction will put out N if the microbes are skimmed or filtered out. But if there’s ammonia generation from NO3, then we‘re not removing nutrients.
I have an email in to my hydrogeologist colleague in my dept who‘s a “fluid flow in porous media” expert. Trying to get his sense if flow around a porous object could effect dissolved fluxes into the object. If fluxes would be higher in higher flow, then I’d worry O2 supply would be too fast to allow an anaerobic process inside the ceramic.

 

[s_tempest]

I thought that is where PNSB thrived was just under the sandbed surface, where there is some light.

i think so too, but I’m not sure on the balance between some light and too much O2. But I’m not a microbial ecologist.

I don’t think it would be ‘bad’ to seed marinepure with PNSB but seems like marinepure could be seeded with almost any bacteria.

true enough - and I’m sure it quickly would get seeded too.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Thanks.
My PhD advisor was cited in that paper. It took me back to sediment biogeochem seminars of years past.
Interesting that nitrate reduction had such higher rates than denitrification. For nutrient removal, assimilatory NO3 reduction will put out N if the microbes are skimmed or filtered out. But if there’s ammonia generation from NO3, then we‘re not removing nutrients.
I have an email in to my hydrogeologist colleague in my dept who‘s a “fluid flow in porous media” expert. Trying to get his sense if flow around a porous object could effect dissolved fluxes into the object. If fluxes would be higher in higher flow, then I’d worry O2 supply would be too fast to allow an anaerobic process inside the ceramic.

Ha, that's great!

Yes, true, and R. palustris definitely cannot perform denitrification in the presence of oxygen. I'd think flow could be both too high and too low, so there must be some Goldilocks rate for these transformations. And even then, the "optimal" flow rate would depend upon a number of other factors.

 

[CEReefer]

Quick question @Kenneth Wingerter, what's your thought on stating PNS + YelloSnow, in a system with branching hydroids (Anthomedusae suborder)? Would they promote the hydroids?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Quick question @Kenneth Wingerter, what's your thought on stating PNS + YelloSnow, in a system with branching hydroids (Anthomedusae suborder)? Would they promote the hydroids?

My honest guess is yes, though I haven't specifically tested these products on hydroids myself. So far, only one user with hydroids (all Stylaster, I believe) reported their experience with ProBio and YelloSno: "It’s working well! The lace corals specifically love it! They open at night when lights are off, if any lights touch the coral it closes almost instantly. But I’m thinking both the blue, yellow and the pink stylaster are still healthy."

 

[CEReefer]

My honest guess is yes, though I haven't specifically tested these products on hydroids myself. So far, only one user with hydroids (all Stylaster, I believe) reported their experience with ProBio and YelloSno: "It’s working well! The lace corals specifically love it! They open at night when lights are off, if any lights touch the coral it closes almost instantly. But I’m thinking both the blue, yellow and the pink stylaster are still healthy."

Right, so if you have a branching hydroid infestation (I do have some), this won't help my cause..

 

[minus9]

Right, so if you have a branching hydroid infestation (I do have some), this won't help my cause..

I have some hydroids in a couple spots in my tank. I feed heavy, dose heavy, lets just say I have a heavy hand in the feeding department. Anyway, I'm going to try aiptasia F (or whatever the new stuff is that hardens and becomes solid?) on them and see if that does the trick. Just a thought.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Haha! Ah, I didn't realize that you are dealing with a pest species (sorry, Anthomedusae didn't ring a bell). Yes, just like any coral food would promote Aiptasia, I suppose these products (especially YelloSno) could just as easily promote a pest hydroid as a desireable one.

 

[CEReefer]

I have some hydroids in a couple spots in my tank. I feed heavy, dose heavy, lets just say I have a heavy hand in the feeding department. Anyway, I'm going to try aiptasia F (or whatever the new stuff is that hardens and becomes solid?) on them and see if that does the trick. Just a thought.

Well, I lived with them, for a while, they were under a candy cane coral, never bothered by them. Now though I fed a little bit more and they are starting to grow on one of my favorite montis, which obviously doesn't like it.. the hydroids hate vinegar, pure vinegar squirted on them usually make them go away (they will reappear somewhere else, but as long as the coral doesn't mind, it's usually fine).

I am carbon dosing, but still having issues with NO3 sitting at 4-5 and moderately high PO4 0.2-0.3, and was hoping to boost the carbon dosing with some PNS to push those down, is there a way to use PNS without the YelloSno?

 

[minus9]

Well, I lived with them, for a while, they were under a candy cane coral, never bothered by them. Now though I fed a little bit more and they are starting to grow on one of my favorite montis, which obviously doesn't like it.. the hydroids hate vinegar, pure vinegar squirted on them usually make them go away (they will reappear somewhere else, but as long as the coral doesn't mind, it's usually fine).

I am carbon dosing, but still having issues with NO3 sitting at 4-5 and moderately high PO4 0.2-0.3, and was hoping to boost the carbon dosing with some PNS to push those down, is there a way to use PNS without the YelloSno?

What are you using as your carbon source? I really like Tropic Marin Elimi-NP for higher PO4, combined with bacteria.

 

[CEReefer]

What are you using as your carbon source? I really like Tropic Marin Elimi-NP for higher PO4, combined with bacteria.

I am currently dosing vinegar..

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

I am carbon dosing, but still having issues with NO3 sitting at 4-5 and moderately high PO4 0.2-0.3, and was hoping to boost the carbon dosing with some PNS to push those down, is there a way to use PNS without the YelloSno?

Yes. ProBio works independently of YelloSno. The idea behind YelloSno (a simulated marine snow) is that it can be used with suspension-feeding inverts that cannot easily capture particles as small as bacterioplankton. The rich B vitamins in YelloSno may benefit these bacteria, but that's a bit of an afterthought. Particularly if you're carbon dosing, and even more so if there's an anaerobic area for them to grow on, they'll easily survive, grow and thereby sequester your excess nutrients.

 

[CEReefer]

@Kenneth Wingerter is there a source of Vitamin B that can be dosed safely in a reef tank (that doesn't "feed")?

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

@Kenneth Wingerter is there a source of Vitamin B that can be dosed safely in a reef tank (that doesn't "feed")?

Can you clarify what you mean by "feed?" Do you mean a source of B vitamins that is not in a food (just the vits)?

 

[CEReefer]

Correct!

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

Correct!

Ah. Get the Superior Source Balance B Complex MicroLingual tablets. They dissolve instantly which is convenient, but more importantly they contain PABA (not all B supplements do). This brand is available on ebay last I checked.

 

[Reefahholic]

How is this bacteria working out for you. Have you seen any benefits lately? Some bacteria don't play nice, but from what I've read it seems to have significant benefits with just about everything. With its ability to thrive in completely different environments it has peaked my interest if @AquaBiomics is seeing this show up in heavy numbers in their testing results.

 

[Rototank]

Ah. Get the Superior Source Balance B Complex MicroLingual tablets. They dissolve instantly which is convenient, but more importantly they contain PABA (not all B supplements do). This brand is available on ebay last I checked.

Sorry to revive this old post.. funny enough PABA (if of p-aminobenzoic acid, we are talking about) is linked to allergic reactions in some animals/humans.. guess we will see what happens in a reef tank!

 

[CEReefer]

What is the suggestion for people that are already carbon dosing? I just received my PNS bottle.. Would you reduce the amount dosed at first and titrate it back up, after adding PNS? I am vinegar dosing, NO3 is 0.14 but PO4 is 0.09. I am hoping that a better strain of bacteria would optimize the PO4 metabolism/fixation.

 

[Kenneth Wingerter]

What is the suggestion for people that are already carbon dosing? I just received my PNS bottle.. Would you reduce the amount dosed at first and titrate it back up, after adding PNS? I am vinegar dosing, NO3 is 0.14 but PO4 is 0.09. I am hoping that a better strain of bacteria would optimize the PO4 metabolism/fixation.

Yes, you got it. ^^^ Vinegar is a great carbon source these guys (maybe ideal). They're pretty good at reducing phosphate. Check this out: https://www.hydrospace.store/post/removing-phosphate-with-pns-bacteria