PSA: PRIME safe to use with COPPER POWER

[Humblefish]

7/13/2023 Note: There is still some question in my mind about using any of the three copper products (Cupramine, Copper Power and Coppersafe) with an EXCESS of any reducing agents. These can include formalin, sodium thiosulfate, Prime or possibly even Amquel. Anything that can break the amine-copper bond can release more toxic ionic copper into the water. You will NOT see an increase in copper from your test kits as mentioned below, the free copper tests the same, it is just more toxic.

Jay Hemdal


First, a few disclaimers:

1. This only applies to using Seachem Prime with Copper Power.
2. I have not tested any other ammonia reducers with any other forms of copper. Seachem, for example, states right on their website that it is dangerous to mix any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine copper product.
3. The manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) has told me that it is safe to use with ammonia reducers as well, but I have not independently verified this.

This all started when the manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) informed me that their copper product was safe to use with Prime, Amquel, etc. This differs from what Seachem has always stated about Cupramine - that any ammonia reducer will turn it 10x more toxic. However, these are completely different forms of copper. Cupramine is "ionic copper" bound on amine, and an ammonia reducer has the potential to break that bound and reduce the Cupramine from the safe Cu2+ form to a very toxic Cu+ form. Coppersafe (and Copper Power) are both chelated coppers. A chelated copper solution is just a blend of two compounds. One is the copper sulfate granule, and the other is an ingredient that allows the copper granules to break down and stay in a liquid state. The ingredient that makes this happen is called a chelator, or sequestering agent.

After getting the green light/more confidence from a chemist about this, I began experimenting on fish by mixing Prime + Copper Power in a QT. I did this repeatedly on different batches of fish, got the copper level as high as 2.5 ppm, tested daily, dosed Prime daily and all the fish are still fine. Not once did I see a spike in the Cu level after dosing Prime using the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702).

So, I feel it is safe to use & recommend mixing Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia on an as needed basis.

P.S. Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics. However, I would avoid dosing Prime in conjunction with liquid Prazipro due to the solubilizing agent it contains.

 

[HotRocks]

Thanks for the info Bobby!

 

[Daniel@R2R]

That's great news!

 

[4FordFamily]

Fantastic! Thanks for testing and challenging the status quo as usual!

 

[Big G]

Thank you for your guidance and continuing improvement to the hobby. Well done.

 

[JasonK84]

Wonderful news!

 

[nickkohrn]

How can we get you more badges? I feel like you don’t have nearly enough for the value that you provide this community. Thank you!

 

[RegalAngel]

So, I assume the same result with Amquel Plus as it works like Prime.

 

[Humblefish]

So, I assume the same result with Amquel Plus as it works like Prime.

Probably, but I haven't tested that.

 

[Bob Escher]

Thank you for the great Info

 

[MnFish1]

First, a few disclaimers:

1. This only applies to using Seachem Prime with Copper Power.
2. I have not tested any other ammonia reducers with any other forms of copper. Seachem, for example, states right on their website that it is dangerous to mix any ammonia reducer with their Cupramine copper product.
3. The manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) has told me that it is safe to use with ammonia reducers as well, but I have not independently verified this.

This all started when the manufacturer of Coppersafe (Fritz) informed me that their copper product was safe to use with Prime, Amquel, etc. This differs from what Seachem has always stated about Cupramine - that any ammonia reducer will turn it 10x more toxic. However, these are completely different forms of copper. Cupramine is "ionic copper" bound on amine, and an ammonia reducer has the potential to break that bound and reduce the Cupramine from the safe Cu2+ form to a very toxic Cu+ form. Coppersafe (and Copper Power) are both chelated coppers. A chelated copper solution is just a blend of two compounds. One is the copper sulfate granule, and the other is an ingredient that allows the copper granules to break down and stay in a liquid state. The ingredient that makes this happen is called a chelator, or sequestering agent.

After getting the green light/more confidence from a chemist about this, I began experimenting on fish by mixing Prime + Copper Power in a QT. I did this repeatedly on different batches of fish, got the copper level as high as 2.5 ppm, tested daily, dosed Prime daily and all the fish are still fine. Not once did I see a spike in the Cu level after dosing Prime using the Hanna High Range Copper Colorimeter (HI702).

So, I feel it is safe to use & recommend mixing Prime with Copper Power to control ammonia on an as needed basis.

P.S. Prime can also be used with Chloroquine, General Cure and antibiotics. However, I would avoid dosing Prime in conjunction with liquid Prazipro due to the solubilizing agent it contains.

Nice work - did it reduce the need for water changes during QT?

 

[Humblefish]

Nice work - did it reduce the need for water changes during QT?

I never did any water changes, just dosed Prime every 24 hours for 30 days. The water did get very cloudy due to Prime binding so much ammonia.

However, I strongly advocate always using a biofilter in QT and reserving Prime for emergency use. Prime can actually work with nitrifying bacteria in a sense, converting ammonia to a non-toxic form which allows the biofilter to more efficiently remove it. However, without a working biofilter in place to remove it the ammonia will be released back into the water after 24-48 hours (as per Seachem.)

 

[niQo]

Good to know!

 

[JasonK84]

I never did any water changes, just dosed Prime every 24 hours for 30 days. The water did get very cloudy due to Prime binding so much ammonia.

However, I strongly advocate always using a biofilter in QT and reserving Prime for emergency use. Prime can actually work with nitrifying bacteria in a sense, converting ammonia to a non-toxic form which allows the biofilter to more efficiently remove it. However, without a working biofilter in place to remove it the ammonia will be released back into the water after 24-48 hours (as per Seachem.)

Would seachem’s “Safe” be the same? I heard it was the same just the powder form.

 

[Humblefish]

Sodium Thiosulfate is the active ingredient in almost all commercial dechlorinators, so my guess would be that "Safe" is safe as well. I only tested with Seachem Prime because that's what I had on hand.

 

[SeeFu]

This is only a temporary solution correct? Eventually Prime releases the ammonia back into the water so you're ammonia level will just keep spiking higher and higher unless you keep adding Prime.

 

[Humblefish]

This is only a temporary solution correct? Eventually Prime releases the ammonia back into the water so you're ammonia level will just keep spiking higher and higher unless you keep adding Prime.

Yes; Prime only binds ammonia for 24-48 hours, and then releases it back into the water. So, this information should be used for emergency situations only IMO. Until you can do a water change and/or strengthen the biofilter.

If you are really pressed for time and cannot do a water change in time, you can safely dose Prime every 24 hours to continue to bind any ammonia. However, the water is going to turn very cloudy.

 

[infinite0180]

Wow this is great info. I can see how this can and will be very useful to others! Ill keep it in my back pocket for when its needed! Although, ive had great luck with BioSpira handling ammonia. I dose heavy for a few days and then continue dosing it daily for about a week. Never see any ammonia. Granted ive only had to do it 3 times or soo...

 

[Thaxxx]

@Humblefish
I've used this combo a few times also.
Is it true that the ammonia badge, and test kits will not function properly
when Prime is used?

 

[Humblefish]

@Humblefish
I've used this combo a few times also.
Is it true that the ammonia badge, and test kits will not function properly
when Prime is used?

Yes; both will give false positives. However, once the ammonia is completely gone from a QT (active ammonia + ammonia bound by Prime), the alert badge will go back to looking yellow.